Has Trump finally been trumped?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/05/donald-trump-legal-fight-windfarm

For me, this is the really interesting part of the article ...

Trump is also in conflict with several of his most prominent supporters over the windfarm scheme, known as the European Offshore Wind Deployment Centre. The EOWDC project involves Aberdeen Renewable Energy Group, a publicly-funded agency part controlled by Aberdeenshire council, which approved Trump's resort, as well as Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen, which last year gave the American tycoon an honorary degree, and the Wood Group, founded by the oil services magnate Sir Ian Wood, a cheerleader for Trump's resort.

My recollection is that when Trump's plans were still on the table, he had been given assurances there would be no off-shore wind farm polluting his view (wee Eck always could talk a good game!). Bit of an empty threat anyway given Trump declared last year there wasn't a market for his housing estate.

A case of ... oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!

What a true saying "No honour amongst theifs" and it looks like he is amongst them if not the leader.

Hope it gets resolved as unlike most I actually like the look of the course and am all for playing it and staying there

I haven't a clue about the area or the project except for a few articles read. What's the controversy about in a nutshell?

Sidebar: Started analysing "in a nutshell" as I wrote the above sentence it dawned on me that I didn't know it's origin. Researched and still don't know but decided my favorite usage was written by Ol' Willie when Hamlet declared, "O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count my selfe a King of infinite space." Wish my golf game was that simple.

Venice can you see if you can edit others posts on the fantasy thread and sticky/unsticky options are available for you to save you needing assistance doing this as discussed.

You will also see a new little tag under your name on your posts

Muchos gracias Mav and Davie. I'll do my best to maintain the League. BTW, are those King Arthur knights and if not, do you have any Robin Hood heads?

Actually they look like Boba Fett from star wars! Never noticed those! May have to change that haha

Welcome to the team Boba!

venice1 wrote:I haven't a clue about the area or the project except for a few articles read. What's the controversy about in a nutshell?

venice ... there are two strands to this "nutshell".

It's a story about what was supposed to be an environmentally protected dune, part of which the contemptible local politicians sacrificed on the altar of the filthy lucre so that Trump could build "the best golf course in the world" on it. They basically panicked because they thought their oil days were numbered and believed even a Trump project would at least provide some sort of economic security, post oil.

The second strand is about Trump bullying local homeowners into selling their homes to allow him to produce a more pristine appearance to the whole golf course area. One of the the homeowners mentioned in the article overlooks the 18th fairway. In spite of Trump declaring that he will not be applying for compulsory purchase orders (which local authorities can do if such projects are deemed beneficial to the community), this doesn't mean to say he never will!

I stated quite a while back (on the BBC site) that even if the oil were running, it did not automatically mean the end of the energy business for Aberdeenshire. The technical expertise could have been transferred to renewables which, believe it or not, Scotland is a world leader. As it happens, things are turning out better than that as other oil fields to the north of Scotland are now going to be tapped into. Not only that but yon oil industry expertise is also going to be used to develop the renewable industry. In essence, these two industries will be working together for their mutual benefit.

I hope you haven't missed the irony here venice for I'm sure you must have noticed that the all-encompassing housing/golfcourse projects in the USA have fallen out of fashion and, it's not just because of a world recession either. Seems this generation is not so interested in the game itself.

In a nutshell, the aberdonians screwed up bigtime in allowing this hair blown popinjay anywhere near this SSSI and, if I had my way, I'd take a knife a run it around the whole of Aberdeenshire and cut it loose from Scotland for true scots the aberdonians most assuredly are not!

Gael, why do you use words like "Yon", as if to assert your Scottishness?

I also don't understand why you think that the oil industry could immediately transfer over to renewables, or even why you think that the skills are transferable.
Either way, as you say Scotland has a long time left in the oil industry( i presume you mean extraction), and even when the North Sea is used up will still have a huge upstream industry.

I'd also much rather see Glasgow annexed from Scotland. Simply because you disagree with the Trump development, doesn't mean that they (Aberdonians) are any less Scottish than someone who opposes it.

What a load of crap!

I'm sorry but all this trump bashing is tedious fact is there will be agronomists working on this project that know a damn site more about how the ebvironment will/will not be affected.

Ok peoples homes being lost!they would have been duly compensated and aided in finding a new one - having been involved in something similar to this myself I can speak from experience on that one.

Then there's the fact the hotel and golf course will provide employment for those that cannot work in the oil industry so that's only good for local economy, unemployment numbers and the individuals working there!

Seems the main protestors to this are those that are not even from the local area and just want something to complain about which doesn't help the image for the stereotypical scottish view of outsiders thinking their a bunch of miserable gits! I must add at this point not my view as my best mate and best man is a glaswegian whom I went through thick and thin with during my service but even he says the same thing!

Fact is it will bring work and visitors to the local area which will help surrounding trades and if that means a great golf course to boot then that's a huge bonus! Only thing left is take the awful TOC off the open rota and replace it with this then job done!

Spot on Mav.

s_r ... dinnae fash yersel ... the use of the word "yon" comes in very handy when I don't want to repeat a word in the same sentence ... in this case ... the word "that".

Still, it doesn't alter the fact that I am a scot and if I choose to use scottish words/phrases to express myself then I don't see what's wrong with this.

In so far as your next point is concerned and, aside from the fact that my son is a design engineer, isn't your point somewhat moot given these two industries have already declared thus? Besides which, the aberdonians themselves are on record as stating they felt they needed Trump's project towards sustaining future economic viability.

Incidentally, you didn't say why you wanted to see Glasgow annexed? Ironic really given many of those cleared from areas like Trump's beloved Hebrides ended up in Glasgow!

I'd see Glasgo annexed because A) It is a toilet, and B) Inhabited by childish sectraian morons.

Also, I sincerely doubt the "renewable" industry could ever account for even a fraction of the oil industry in Aberdeen.

s_r ... venice asked for a summary and I obliged.

All Aberdeen has gained thusfar from this whole fiasco is another golf course which, in itself, will not make much difference to the economc future of Aberdeenshire.

It's also highly doubtful as to whether or not this housing estate will ever be built. Trump himself admitted there was no market and that was before the go ahead was given for yon windmills!

You cannot say for certain that it will not have a reasonable economic impact to the area in which it is built. If, when completed it is considered to be one of the worlds top courses, a la Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart, then it would be churlish to say that it wouldn't impact on the economy to a reasonable degree. In comparison to the revenue that oil brings in then of course, it would barely dent it, but I believe it would be important to bringing visitors to the area and perhaps making it an alternative golfing destination to Fife, Lothian and the West Coast. Especially when you consider that a round of golf might indirectly lead to circa £600 being spent by visitors from America/Japan etc

However, what does confuse me about the Trump thing is how he can expect to dictate what is built within his sightline. Personally I think wind farms are pretty pointless, but not aesthetically displeasing. If I was building a house, I don't think I would be able to object ot anything being built 20 miles away that might "spoil" my view.

The visitors to the Trump course will be well heeled and therefore spend big in the area. There will be some interested in building a holiday home on the course, especially if its an exclusive development. This will take off but slower than Trump imagined, but expect it to be a top notch course and facilites. The only way the local housing market will go is upwards and that will be all down to this development. So the locals will all share in that as well as job creation, but don't think the jobs will ever be able to replace the high paid jobs in the oil industry.

It won't have an economic impact! Again more drivel!

The fact he's building a hotel alone will create a large number of jobs for locals! Maids, porters, chefs, sous chefs, kitchen porters, waiting staff, reception staff, shop staff, grounds staff! That alone would be a couple of hundred jobs! So there's an immediate impact on the local populous and unemployment figures!

Then there's the people coming to play for weekends staying there that'll spend in local shops and garages for fuel and just a bit of shopping! Then factor in likelihood of trump hosting some form of pro event and the spectactors that will spend!

That's a big dent in local economic upturn

Seems to many anti Trumps are focusing their issues on the dislike of the man rather than thinking about everything that comes with his course! Its not just 18holes! Its a whole complex that will generate, jobs, revenue and tourism!

That's the whole issue Mav in a nutshell. You can bet if it was one of the more likeable and socially acceptable entrepreneurs such as Branson then they'd hardly bat an eyelid.

The area at present only has one truly class course in Royal Aberdeen. Another would cement it is a must visit destination, the economic benefits of that owuld be irrefutable.

Agree with Mav and s_r though I think you maybe underestimate the anti-Trumps.

Richard Branson would also likely be as welcome as a fart in spacesuit up there. unless he changed his name to McBranson

So it would be more accepted if it had been a Scottish entrepreneur Davie?

Not sure it would make a difference. I've lived there and it's not one of the negative inward looking places of Scotland, due to the make up of the working population it's a pretty cosmopolitan place. I don't think they go in for tartan jingoism too much.

No - but must of the complainants aren't from that area are they?

Oh right, I see what you mean Davie. It is a bit odd that those who are so vehemently against it, aren't from the area and haven't even been there.

Its all to easy to be anti anything if you only look at one of the factors involved! Look at the whole project for what it can do and there alone you see the benefit to the aberdeenshire economy!

Here's a point if its not on your doorstep why bother getting so arsey about it!

Down my way they are looking to rip up the thames estuary and put in airport in an area where transport links are non existent! The disruption to locals, wildlife and the general public will be horrific! Having a 747 roraring over your house at 3am is more cause for this type of unrest! Bring Trump down here to develop this they way he is aberdeen and you will see everyone wanting to help out

I've just checked out the Trump Aberdeenshire course website and the new photos that are up really are impressive.

Haud yer horses. I for one am very pleased that the Scottish primary schools are teaching Auld Scots in the schools Auld Scots has many good words that seem to fit much better that estuary English. Scunnered and Crabbit being good examples.

Taking Turnberry as an example.
a] Very few Scots are employed.
b] Visitor spend is generally held within the site.
c] The holiday lodges are usually 95% empty.

I think Trump has got cold feet. He is looking for blame as his business plan is falling apart.

Have you got anything to back ANY of that Doon, or is it just speculation?
How do you know very few Scots are employed? (who cares where they come from anyway)
How do you know visitor spend is generally held within the site?
How do you know the lodges are 95% empty?

Even if it is true, it doesn't mean all similar venues will be the same.

As for Scottish colloquialism. There's a great book called "Shut yer pus" which has loads of them in, and funny as it is, I wouldn't want to speak like that.

SR
When I was semi-retired I worked a season there for a bit of fun.
Wasn't a lot of fun really. They had good managment systems which were implimented by poor managers.
The free meals and golf was a decent perk though!

I live nearby and walk the mutt [and the dog] on Turnberry beach so I can see how quiet everything is.

Doon the Water wrote:Taking Turnberry as an example.
a] Very few Scots are employed.
b] Visitor spend is generally held within the site.
c] The holiday lodges are usually 95% empty.

I think Trump has got cold feet. He is looking for blame as his business plan is falling apart.

Indeed Doon. Not just Turnberry either. Mr Gael and I had a weekend at Gleneagles a few years back and the only scottish voice I heard the whole weekend was the doorman ... suitably attired of course in a kilt to give the hotel that all-important first impression scottish experience.

Don't know about you Doon but sometime it's hard to differentiate between the pure ignorant and the wind-upperers!

Davie wrote:Agree with Mav and s_r though I think you maybe underestimate the anti-Trumps.

Richard Branson would also likely be as welcome as a fart in spacesuit up there. unless he changed his name to McBranson

Can only speak for myself of course but there is absolutely no comparison between Branson and Trump. For one thing, Branson's got hair!

My objection to Trump isn't only down to his crass manner but he has 'previous' (in the USA) for trying to bully people off their land. He also seems to get embroiled in one lawsuit after another. I'm sure his litigious attention will turn to the aberdonians in the fullness of time.

gaelgowfer wrote:

Doon the Water wrote:Taking Turnberry as an example.
a] Very few Scots are employed.
b] Visitor spend is generally held within the site.
c] The holiday lodges are usually 95% empty.

I think Trump has got cold feet. He is looking for blame as his business plan is falling apart.

Indeed Doon. Not just Turnberry either. Mr Gael and I had a weekend at Gleneagles a few years back and the only scottish voice I heard the whole weekend was the doorman ... suitably attired of course in a kilt to give the hotel that all-important first impression scottish experience.

Don't know about you Doon but sometime it's hard to differentiate between the pure ignorant and the wind-upperers!

What is wrong with the clientele of a what is now a tourist orientated facility not being Scottish?
If I went to the Statue of Liberty I'd expect most people not to be locals, similarly if I went to The Pyramids.

Not everything in Scotland has to be geared towards the indigenous haggis munching , kilt wearing Jock McSporrans.

s_r ... so, it would appear that you don't think this project will provide much in the way of jobs for the local population then?

This is entirely academic anyway. Those wind turbines are going up so Trump would be stupid to go forward with the housing project.

In any event, I don't think wee Eck cares which way Trump jumps, now that the oil industry is secure for sometime to come. He's more interested in peddling his separatist views just now.

Who says it won't? Simply because you didn't see many Scots on your dirty weekend with Mr Gael doesn't mean that any other development won't have.
I'm sure the majority of greenstaff, caddies and course managers will be Scottish (once again, not that that matters.) ust as they are at Kingsbarns etc.

Like everywhere else in the UK though, many of the service industry staff (hotel and cetering) might well be foreign (Gael gasps in Daily Mail disgust)

Super
A fair percentage of the Turnberry Greenstaff and Pros were furreners as well.
Quite a few Saffys when I was there.
They did the 2 year career shift thinking that with a 'Turnberry tick in the box' they would advance thier career.
The caddies were mainly Scots. They strongly supporting the Scottish drinks industry.

Super

In another world were you Dr Macgregor in the Tony Hancock 'Blood Donor' sketch.

Doon, I'm afraid the Hancock reference has gone over my head.

However, jobs being produced is positive, no matter what their nationality.

gaelgowfer wrote:venice ... there are two strands to this "nutshell".

Thank you gael. Didn't mean to open a can o' worms and it's going to take a few reads to digest all the posts here but it's definitely been enlightening. If nothing else, Mr. Trump is a lightening rod regardless of where he invests in his golf course ventures. He had an experience here in Southern California when he bought and revamped a local course on the Palos Verdes peninsula that has stunning views of the Pacific Ocean looking towards Catalina Island.

He eventually got his course, poured in millions but was forced to withdraw a number of related facility and housing projects as those living in the surrounding hills have very deep pockets with all the political leverage to boot. (When a good proportion of the local roads have been made to bend due to the horse trails which wind through the area, you know the residents have clout.) The course offers average challenge to low handicappers but the green fees have reduced the number of rounds played considerably. Which reminds me, my brother promised to take me there for my birthday last year but I've yet to have seen even the parking lot so far. Here's the clubs's website: http://www.trumpnationallosangeles.com/

Yo (I wonder what s_r thinks of americanisms? ) venice. This story has a long way to run yet.

Interesting you should mention the aborted californian housing project. It had always been my contention that the golf course was the deal maker for the Aberdeen housing project. The only reason I'm saying this is because I know that other (scottish) builders had tried and failed to build on this piece of land but then, they didn't dangle the "world's greated golf course" in front of those intellectually-challenged aberdeenshire 'cooncillors'!

Had a little look look at your link. It certainly is a stunning piece of coastline: shame about the waterfall! Thought I'd better check Trump's Aberdeen photo gallery to see if I could find any waterfalls there. None ... so far! Still, I couldn't help but notice an excess of mounding on some of the fairways which of course will look far more exaggerated in 3D!

Hi gael,

The waterfall at Trump National L.A. looks like it belongs in Vegas somewhere on The Strip. I shudder to think that is someone's idea of opulence. It obviously wasn't there before they renovated the course a few years ago. The age old adage is again apparent in that it takes money to fight money. It appears the Aberdeen folk against the project didn't have the resources to hold their ground.

Well venice, I don't think anyone knows the extent to which the aberdonians liked or disliked this project but it's academic anyway as the aberdonians are reknown for the grippieness!

Mind you, it didn't stop Trump from claiming that 90% backed the project. It should be noted at this juncture that he has never been able to substantiate this claim.

In any event, wee Eck (First Minister, Alex Salmond) is a keen gowfer who just happens to have his consituency in the region and, anything that can generate jobs (even if he and ROW knows most of them will go to cheap foreign labour) is bound to be a vote winner.

Gael, you are like a broken record. The fact is that most service industry jobs do go to cheap foreign labour these days . So what.
Aberdeen probably has a higher level of skilled labour than any city in the UK outside London, of course foreign labour is going to make up a sizeable proportion, but a job is a job and it's all money for the treasury in taxes no matter where the person comes from.

Aberdonians, gripy?

I must confess that I much prefer to be served by smart bright Eastern Europeans when I travel around Scotland.

I stayed in quite a posh hotel [for me] on Mull last year and the all Scottish management and staff were very surly and unprofessional.

At one hotel the young Estonian bartender even had a vey good knowledge on Malts. When asked how she became so clever she said that she studied and worked hard on her pronounciation.

And...as SR says at least they are working and paying taxes.

I am certainly not complaining about the flood of young female bartenders, waitresses, etc from Eastern Europe. Not only are they more friendly, professional, dedicated and helpful, they are certainly more pleasant on the eye than the average British girl.

The ladies seem to look after themselves better, has anyone ever seen a fat Slovakian girl staggering out of a chip shop with her gut hanging over her skirt?

Excellent point Ray, it can only be good for the rather depleted gene pool too.

Super,

Just joined from the other side so trying to catch up on the discussion. It's a bit like walking into the kitchen at a party and finding that's where the real party is.

I'm from Aberdeen. There's no question aboit it. We are grippy and I'm proud of it.

An earlier post said new pictures on the website. That makes sence as a guy in the office was walking the course in December and he told me all the greens and tees had been painted green. Only a bald guy with a wig could think that one up.

On 606 V2 I posted that I'd walked the course recently and it's amazing.

Interesting debate regarding the politics. I'd add a couple of points. We have a large polish community in Aberdeen and I think most of the jobs in the clubhouse, hotel and appartments (when built) will be taken by non locals. Secondly, although the oil and gas production from the North Sea is reducing the effort to extract the remainder and dealing with ageing assets is keeping us all happily employed and will do so for a long time to come.

Overall I'm in favour of the developemt, but £120 / round for locals Mon - Fri is a bit too streep for this grippy Aberdonian.

Scottie, I work in the Oil industry too, and I reckon that the exploration part of the Upstream business will keep Aberdeen going for a long time after the North Sea is no longer commerically viable.
Aberdeen as a hub for the Oil Industry in Europe is more than just about the North Sea, but lots of people don't get that.

Scottie

I'll happily come up and play it with you. Links is my favourite form of golf so politics aside, any new links course is good news in my eyes. At the prices being quoted, it would be a one off for me but from what I've seen, it really does look like a stunning course.

As for all this talk about the fairways being too narrow etc, learn to hit the ball straight you bunch of muppets

I don't even think it looks that narrow, i'm sure it's just the perspective and people assuming a par three with no fairway and an access path is actually a par four where you are expected to land on a fairway four foot wide.

Looks like they have made a decent course. They must have transplanted loads of marran grass.
Wonder if they tried it on Trumps heid?