Honesty & Integrity in Golf

I know we've done the cheating thing to death, but today I found myself in a position I've never been in before.

For anyone that's read the "tell us about your game today thread" this weekend will see I played in a club stableford Sunday and scored 38points. However this afternoon at 2pm I got an email from the club stating that I had come first in the comp on countback from 2 other players.

Great I thought nice early win or "W" as tiger the annoying git would put it, BUT and it is a big BUT I noticed they had me finishing in first place on CB with 39points. So first thing I did is replay my round/score through my head to see if I'd miss calculated but no I'm 100% positive I had 38points.

Queue email war with club secretary!

I emailed the club secretary to inform him of the error, I detailed my score and points to show it totalled to 38points not 39 and that at best this should mean I finished 3rd not 1st. I asked that the result be altered to show this fact.

Secretary responded promptly (within 15mins) stating "having compared your card to your email, it is clear that there has been an input error on the clubs system by the competition secretary. Your score of 38points that has been signed for is correct and based on this fact you would have infact finished 4th on countback. However due to the admin work involved I have decided to leave the score as it is and result to stand. The reason being I do not have time to amend the scores, change the vouchers in pro shop and re-inform people of a change to result".

I was astounded by this and could only re-itterate that I had 38points and clearly I had not even placed top 3 as he agreed, so based on this irrespective of the admin involved(which I doubt is a great deal) the result cannot stand and I was not happy at the decision taken as I did not win so why should I profit and also that my playing partners were aware of my 38points so allowing this to remain made me look like a cheat!

Again he replied but this time added he had in agreement with the Captain that they could let this one slide as nobody apart from me and my playing partners would be any the wiser.

I'm currently aghast with what's occured and been said. I did again respond but this time stated I will not accept this decision and that both he and the captain should have more integrity in the matter and should not have even contemplated taking the decision they have. I have also informed him that

I have since printed the emails to take to the club to show others what has been said as I do not want to be seen as a questionable winner. I didn't win nor did I place so how can they say we'll let it stand after admitting to their error.

It has left me questioning my status at the club, i've only been at this club for little over a year after moving home and other things in that time with regards the committee have already sat uneasy with me, but as of now I'm totally at odds with the management of the club. My yearly subs are due on the 13th of Feb and right now I'm considering not renewing as a result of this as I cannot and do not want to associate myself with something that's not honest.

I'm going to speak with Mavettes swing coach, he is a long time friend and Pro of some 15years who is also doing a degree in club management at birmingham Uni to seek his advice, but as things stand I feel like my decision will be to walk away from my club and maybe inform the local rag or club golfer mag of this and why. Despite the fact I've enjoyed my golf here and had a good debut year this has soured my taste and feel like there is no other option.

Sorry to rant on but thought I would seek opinion on this.

That is unbelievable, Mav.

Our Committee moved heaven and earth just to get £4 on to my card after there'd been an error in distributing prizemoney.

Personally, I think you should get out of there.

Seems an astounding decision and if they've done it this time, I would query whether it has occured in the past. It puts you in a potentially embarrassing situation not of your making. The trouble is, if they back down after having been so resolute then they will lose face and that wouldn't do at all now would it

Merc: that's exactly as it should be, no matter the amount they should make amends. This was a stableford that had 60entrants in over the course of the day so first prize is a decent amount I do not want to take someone elses money that I have not won.

NST: those are the things that are really concerning me, habe they done this before/will they do it again! It makes me look questionable to other members when infact I've highlighted the error they made to them! Then the fact they won't back down to a mere member as they are the powermen!

I'm thinking of sending the details in there entirety to the County Secretary and EGU to cover myself and if I walk which is hugely likely I will take the emails with me to the new club to show my innocence so nothing can follow me! I feel like the villain but have comitted no crime!

Unbelievable Mav!! What a shocking situation and no fault of your own. Was it a qualifier? If so what score was officially recorded for the purposes of the Congu handicap system? If it was the wrong one then your club admins should quite rightly be in big trouble.

As NST suggests, if they can do this, what else have they done? Has someone with less integrity benefitted from their incompetence in the past?

If it were me then yes, County and EGU informed and new club sought. You're probably quite rightly thinking about Mavette as well i.e. do you want to uproot her and move her to another club when (from what I've gathered) she seems to be making good progress. Well...imagine if she was the victim of a scoring cover up!!

Expose them, I have no time for cheats but if there's one thing equally as bad it's bent officialdom.

Shocking Mav.

Is the club secretary just a member elected to the post and acting on a part time basis or is he an employee of the club?

Either way the result MUST be rectified - I think you need to get down there and see people face to face and take it as high as necessary. Not only has someone else been "cheated" out of a result, you are in a bad position yourself as you rightly point out.

These things seem to follow you around! I can just see Mav now in a Balotelli "why always me" shirt

Quite amazing

As you say I think you should copy the emails to your County GU.

I think your club think they are 'untouchable'.

Follow me around yep like a bad smell! Of somethings going to happen it always feels like me! I imagine they happen to others to but their more refined and don't discuss them.

The secretary is a club employee so stating he doesn't have time is a cop out.

I've decided that this morning I will be taking the emails along with my letter of resignation from the club, I wiill also take mavette out of the club and find us both a new home club.

I have also this morning drafted and email and will be sending it to the entire mens section of the club to inform them of my reasons for departing and attach a copy of the emails

ive just now sent the same email to the EGU and County Secretary so that they can see I'm not doing this lightly and feel the members are being subjected to poor officiating.

With regards to Mavette we were considering getting her a 2nd membership anyway to Rochester and Cobham due to their youth coaching policy so that is now set in stone and this afternoon I will go and pay her subs and arrange for her to meet with the Junior Organiser to integrate her into the club.

Bit drastic Maverick ... unless of course you don't particularly like the course.

Under Rule 34 - 1(b) ... a club is under no obligation to alter results once a competition has closed which, this one clearly had. There are exceptions but they don't seem to apply to your situation. You should also note under Rule 34 - 3 that when a decision has been referred to a committee (in this case, admittedly just the Captain) then the decision is final.

I think you are correct in apprising someone else not connected with the club of your situation but, other than returning the voucher to the club, perhaps you should just wait until you hear from your County or EGU before taking any action you may regret later.

I also don't think you should presume the secretary is not very busy. There is a lot more to this job that members imagine. Quite apart from anything else, look at the amount of worktime is 'used up' speaking to members like you!

gaelgowfer wrote:Bit drastic Maverick ... unless of course you don't particularly like the course.

Under Rule 34 - 1(b) ... a club is under no obligation to alter results once a competition has closed which, this one clearly had. There are exceptions but they don't seem to apply to your situation. You should also note under Rule 34 - 3 that when a decision has been referred to a committee (in this case, admittedly just the Captain) then the decision is final.

I think you are correct in apprising someone else not connected with the club of your situation but, other than returning the voucher to the club, perhaps you should just wait until you hear from your County or EGU before taking any action you may regret later.

I also don't think you should presume the secretary is not very busy. There is a lot more to this job that members imagine. Quite apart from anything else, look at the amount of worktime is 'used up' speaking to members like you!

On the contrary Gael I like the course, but I have principles and regardless of what the rule states about the outcome not being altered imo its a form of cheating someone else out of their win they earned not me.

That alone does not sit well with me, nor does the use of the words "no-one need know" that to me is dishonest and makes me look like a common cheat to those that don't know! Also am I the first person this has happened to I don't feel I am after the stance they are taking.

As for him and his worktime. That's a totally pointless comment this is part of his job to ensure members are treated fairly and by taking the stance he has he is not doing that, and ameding the scores of one person is not going to take more than 5mins the computer software will then recalculate the result accurately for him so it is a cop out.

Would you be happy at losing to someone like this no! So therefore I am not happy to be the victor with the spoils when I did not earn them.

Also if you re-read you will see I mention other things have not sat well with me in the way some things the committee have done. I play my golf fairly and to be competitive and to win in such a way is against my morals and does not sit right with me regardless of the rules.

walking away won't necessarily sort the issue. stay, and sort them out properly mav. contact the guys who ought to have finished above you and let them know about the situation. i'm sure the sec will sort it out and learn how to deal with this kind of situation properly next time.

Clearly these guys are out of order, must be very frustrating for you Mav. The secretary is just being plain lazy. It really is not a particularly busy job at all.

However, I do agree with Gael that the actions you are proposing are a bit drastic. You've only been there a year, it's no skin off the secretary's nose if you leave. I'm assuming that you carefully chose this course from the alternatives in the area. If you like the course and consider it the most suitable then resigning will only inconvenience you and mavette.

I'm sure you can express your principles and explain the situation to your fellow members without being confrontational and having to resign.

Pretty bizarre stuff going on here, I'm really not sure what to say or advise you to do. One thing I would do though is contact the other guys and go into the pro shop and explain the situation to him. At the very least, he should be able to swap the monies around in peoples' accounts so everyone gets the prize they are entitled to.

Best of luck in sorting this one out!!

Simple memo by email and notice board:

STOP PRESS
Error occurred during entering scores for the ....... competition. Scores recalculated and correct results are: 1) ....... 2) ........... 3) .......
Sorry for the hicup, but this needed to be attended to. Special mention to Mav as he has been demoted from 1st to 4th place on countback. Mav actually brought this hicup to our attention so the comitteee feel that a big thankyou is appropriate for his honesty ......

How hard is that and they could have ammended the system later

Doc wrote:Simple memo by email and notice board:

STOP PRESS
Error occurred during entering scores for the ....... competition. Scores recalculated and correct results are: 1) ....... 2) ........... 3) .......
Sorry for the hicup, but this needed to be attended to. Special mention to Mav as he has been demoted from 1st to 4th place on countback. Mav actually brought this hicup to our attention so the comitteee feel that a big thankyou is appropriate for his honesty ......

How hard is that and they could have ammended the system later

That is literally all it would take as well.

I've had an email back from County and I quote "We at county would like to thank you for bringing this matter to our attention and commend you on your honesty with the club in this matter. Unfortunately this is not the first report of this kind we've had in regards to your Club, we had 3 similar instances occur in 2011"

There was a lot more to the email than that about the subject and what action county are looking to take,and that they have contacted the club on my behalf who are standing by their stance! based on this alone I fail to see how even amending the scores can install any further confidence in the club for me.

I have also hd an email back from the secretary which is at best a piss take! (Excuse my french) "we at the club are very disappointed in the fact you felt the need to take this matter outside of the club, as we feel this shows us in a bad light. Furthermore if its such an issue to you personally all we can suggest is the possibility of reconsidering your position at the. We are aware that in you short time here, you have become an integral part of the scratch team but let me remind you no man is bigger than the club"

What a complete joke! Basically by being honest and trying to get the right thing done I'm trying to make myself bigger than the club.

With regards me walking away being its not being made light heartedly and the emails from county and the club confirm in my mind its the correct decision. As for Mavette her moving to rochester and cobham will only aid further improvement as the county youth coaches are already based there and they have more girls for her to compete against

Incredible...

"not the first report of this kind we've had in regards to your Club, we had 3 similar instances occur in 2011"

...How many 4th places did you have in medals last year Mav

"as we feel this shows us in a bad light."

Well yeah...that's the whole point!! What a priceless display of complete ignorance!!

Good luck in your new club Mav!!

Is it a private members club or one owned and the golfers don't own the place.

In the first instance then take it up at the AGM and the secretary gets fired for being so bloody ignorant.

In the second... sue him for defamation of character, theft by refusal to correct an error (if that's possible), and bring yourself and the club into disrepute.

I think that should about cover it.

Not that I'd know for sure...but this club seems like a bit of a joke. I mean refusing to correct an error because they can't be bothered, makes me think it's run by a group of students

Did you type that reply from them yourself or did you paste it?

If that is verbatim then it shows they are not only incompetant but also incapable of stringing a few words together!

(if you typed it yourself then we forgive you because we all know about your typing skills)

During the day as I thought about this case I was begining to think that resignation was perhaps a little OTT but after this extra news I'm not so sure now!

Actually... you know what. Print the posts on this out and stick em up all over the club. Let people there know who is running the place and the county is aware of issues with them.

Incidentally... I imainge the EGU would be interested as it covers falsifying handicaps. Something they take very seriously. They could take action against the club for something like that I reckon.

Davie the one from my club was juist cut and paste. County was me paraphrasing or however its spelt as it went into far more detail!

I was softening on my stance of leaving but the secretary response ended up just hardening my resolve. Mrs Mav is tomorrow going to pay Mavettes subs at her new course and arrange with the secretary for her to meet with the Junior Organiser and integrate her into the junior section.

As for me I'm going to look about and find somewhere I really want to be and take my time in doing so, I will be speaking with county about my handicap as there are several events I wanted to play this year but I will not rush into any decision after this.

I have contacted the pro to inform him to allocate my money to the rightful winner I have also downloaded the club members contact list and emeailed the details to all who have a registered email address and have sent a second email to the county and EGU detailing the clubs response and what I have done.

Its a shame as the course is nice but the committee and the ones in charge are bringing it down with their treatment of the members. As far as I'm concerned members are the most important people in the club and unhappy members makes for a poorly run club.

Let's see what the EGU come back with

Should be interesting to see the reacton from the clubs members.... I think the secretary might find himself out of job shortly.

hogie wrote:Should be interesting to see the reacton from the clubs members.... I think the secretary might find himself out of job shortly.

I've never before wished someone to be removed from a postion of employment but being a business owner and putting that hat on I sincerely would myself sack the man for gross incompetence and failing to accurately do his job and take into consideration of those he serves.

Have to wait and see what responses I get from members, county and egu but sure as hell will be interesting.

They do say truth is stranger than fiction but it doesn't stop me wondering if this whole episode is more latter than former!

It's not just the unnatural speed at which things have happened (amateur golf is not, after all, reknown for its administrative speed) but ... "no man is bigger than the club"???

Thanks for basically calling me a liar gael! But its not fiction our club always has results out a day after comps and as for county reply promptly its helps knowing the county secretary as he's based at my old club!

The secretary at my current soon to be former club is very arrogant and that is a term he used

Mav

just noticed your location on your profile info above.

Is that referring to your tee shots??

gaelgowfer wrote:They do say truth is stranger than fiction but it doesn't stop me wondering if this whole episode is more latter than former!

It's not just the unnatural speed at which things have happened (amateur golf is not, after all, reknown for its administrative speed) but ... "no man is bigger than the club"???

is it really necesary to insult someone like this by hazarding a guess? Maybe you should "wonder" to yourself rather than calling someone a liar.
If you dont take things on a forum at face value then theres probably no point in taking part- especially if you are going to do so so spitefully

Maverick wrote:Thanks for basically calling me a liar gael! But its not fiction our club always has results out a day after comps

Indeed, we regularly have results out on the same day as the comp.

I'm now beginning to understand why Mav is doing so well in the Eclectic. Did you get the club secretary to submit your rounds for you? I'm going to ask grumpy to watch out for "administrative errors".

No man is bigger than the eclectic.

raycastleunited wrote:I'm now beginning to understand why Mav is doing so well in the Eclectic. Did you get the club secretary to submit your rounds for you? I'm going to ask grumpy to watch out for "administrative errors".

No man is bigger than the eclectic.

Oh, I thought +1 meant Mav got an extra shot on his handicap. Is that not right?

hend085 wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:They do say truth is stranger than fiction but it doesn't stop me wondering if this whole episode is more latter than former!

It's not just the unnatural speed at which things have happened (amateur golf is not, after all, reknown for its administrative speed) but ... "no man is bigger than the club"???

is it really necesary to insult someone like this by hazarding a guess? Maybe you should "wonder" to yourself rather than calling someone a liar.
If you dont take things on a forum at face value then theres probably no point in taking part- especially if you are going to do so so spitefully

Its just typical gael! If she didn't write it then it can't be true! As for her club if they can't turn scores and emails round in a day I'd suggest investing in something more upto date than, slate and chisel and maybe a pc instead of carrier pidgeon

I actually read it that Gael was scoffing at the speed the club secretary replied and the response from County, rather than the speed of the comp result (I'd expect the results to be out the same day)

Still not nice to be casting doubt on aspects of the story though - perhaps she is stil smarting from the backlash to the Paul McGinley club hire thing

Davie wrote:I actually read it that Gael was scoffing at the speed the club secretary replied and the response from County, rather than the speed of the comp result (I'd expect the results to be out the same day)

Still not nice to be casting doubt on aspects of the story though - perhaps she is stil smarting from the backlash to the Paul McGinley club hire thing

Maybe but then maybe she should have worded it better as I'm clearly not the only that took her comments to mean what I feel they do.

Regards to secretary at club, he is obliged to respond to members the same day so no surprise it was quick, and again with county 2 reasons that would have been quick

1. He is involved in the county side I've represented in past years and also involved in the management of youth develop programme that mavettes on so he would know my name and likely wonder what I wanted.

2. He and his office as county secretaru happens to be based at my old club so again he would know me in person.

So if you like in lehman terms my name and the word Complaint in bold would have stood out like a sore thumb to him.

Even these aside I've always found our county to respond immediately with an answer of at least an email stating we are looking into it so as you know your not simply being ignored

gaelgowfer wrote:They do say truth is stranger than fiction but it doesn't stop me wondering if this whole episode is more latter than former!

It's not just the unnatural speed at which things have happened (amateur golf is not, after all, reknown for its administrative speed) but ... "no man is bigger than the club"???

Gael, Can I hazard a guess that as a xmas stocking filler you had a wee book entitled "How to be a WUM for Dummies - K Yamata"

Maverick wrote:Thanks for basically calling me a liar gael! But its not fiction our club always has results out a day after comps and as for county reply promptly its helps knowing the county secretary as he's based at my old club!

The secretary at my current soon to be former club is very arrogant and that is a term he used

Ach, will ye listen tae yersel. Don't be such a prima donna. I just thought you were indulging the board in a little wind-up, that's all. The evidence was there to at least suggest the possibility of it being such.

I'm not going to go back and trawl through your posts but the main items which made me wonder if this were the case were ... 1) you stated that your county had had not one, not two, but three similar incidents reported to it in 2011 and yet, apparently, have only now decided to consider taking action? 2) the "no man is bigger than the club" quote. Arrogant your club secretary may be but I still wouldn't expect him to make such a naff comment. 3) I find it quite astonishing that any club captain would collude with the club secretary to cover up such deceit.

So, on the basis that truth is stranger than fiction, have you found a way to return the voucher to the club?

hend085 ... is it really necesary to insult someone like this by hazarding a guess? Maybe you should "wonder" to yourself rather than calling someone a liar.
If you dont take things on a forum at face value then theres probably no point in taking part- especially if you are going to do so so spitefully

Your choice but I don't feel under any obligation to accept anyone's word on an anonymous forum.

Nevertheless, I do know what it's like to have my word called into question. Not so long ago, I had my golfing credentials called into question by super-realist. Strange though, I don't recall any other poster taking s_r to task over this.

A case of all boys together?

I must have missed that one Gael.

To be fair I think SR does that to all the other posters as well.

The speed at which Mav got a response from his County made me wonder about the thread to be honest. He did give the reasons which is fairy nuff.

I love that in a thread he entitled Honesty and Integrity, people are questioning Mavs'.

being fair to gael it is a bit quick. Although in her day it probably took so long to get a response from the county as letters were still taken via horse courier. In these days of telephone and email thingamawhatsis can move more quickly than three week response times.

I know that this is only an internet forum and a lot of the people on here have/will never meet each other so pretty much anything goes but what does Mav have to gain by making this all up?

I see no reason to disbelieve what he is saying.

In all honesty I coulnt give a toss who questions my integrity on here what matters is those I play with no I'm not a cheat$ so in future maybe I should just keep things I think may interest others to myself!

Nothing to gain from making this up at all so I'll leave it there and let you all argue whther its real or not, I know the truth I have the facts oh and gael refer to your own post on rules that if committee agree they don't need change decision that's why they agree saves them work!

I revisited one of your posts and discovered you had requested the pro to re-allocate the voucher. Does he have the authority to do this? You might be landing him in a heap of trouble. Not only that but there is the question of your h'cap. Does your h'cap reflect a 38 pointer or a 39 pointer?

I don't know how your computer system works but at my club, the members themselves feed their scores directly into the computer and everything after that is automatic so, unless you only put a card in the box without also entering your score into the computer, I'm struggling to understand how your comp secy was able to make a faulty input.

My reference to adminstrative speed was based on referrals to ctts which usually take time eg my club ctte meet monthly.

I would strongly advise you not to take the drastic measure of leaving this club just yet until all in-house avenues have been exhausted (eg write to the ctte). Leaving this club with your integrity intact will be small comfort if you can't get into another club in the area because you've been labled a troublemaker by your ex-club.

mav . . . just wondering . . . are you even a real golfer

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scarpa wrote:mav . . . just wondering . . . are you even a real golfer

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No he's not, he uses mass produced Ping clubs

drive4show wrote:

scarpa wrote:mav . . . just wondering . . . are you even a real golfer

( )

No he's not, he uses mass produced Ping clubs

And no real golfer wears pink trousers. Or can even claim to be a man.

scarpa wrote:mav . . . just wondering . . . are you even a real golfer

( )

What's golf!

Just for info a not too different occurance happened when Bobby Locke won, I think the 1950 Open at Troon.

He had marked his ball a putter head away for his final putt and replaced his ball on the marker.
It was not until the Pathe News film was shown a couple of days later that someone noticed this.

Result stood.

That's not really the same though is it Doon?

In Locke's case, he should have been penalised shots for an infringement and it wasn't spotted at the time - the result stands

In the case of someone finishing 4th but given 1st down to purely accounting errors - a different kettle of fish entirely

Davie
I'm thinking more of the decision making process by the event organisers once they knew things were not correct.