Winter qualifiers becoming non-qualifiers - CONGU

While reading the minutes of last months committee meeting I found the following... (names removed)

The competition on 9th December was turned into a non-qualifier by the proshop. This is
the second time this has happened this year. xxx believes this contravenes CONGU as a
non-qualifier should not run as an individual competition but rather as a team or pairs
event. The reason given at the time was that the feeling was if changed to a non-qualifier
on the day more people would drop out. yyy was consulted at the time and the reason
given to him was that the ground was frozen and forecast to remain so.

xxx/yyy to take this to the next management meeting so that golf ops are aware of the
CONGU requirement.

A non-qualifier should be a pairs or team event according to CONGU?? Has anyone else ever heard of this? I find it very hard to believe that CONGU really care about how NQ comps are run and wonder if someone has been misinformed here.

I've done a search of CONGU online and can't find any reference to this - has anyone ever heard anything like this (or have a hardcopy of the CONGU handbook to check?)

I must admit that in NQ conditions, I'd probably prefer team or pairs events as they are more "fun" but if a comp is declared NQ at a late point in time (because of weather conditions for example - frozen greens) - then why shouldn't it stay individual?

That's rubbish. Any competition can be deemed a non-qualifier (all our winter comps were NQ for handicaps because of the state of the course) but it is usually because of some restriction (5-club or whatnot) or course restrictions (temporary greens or a shortened course from that granted the SSS - or a frozen course ... when the course should really be closed ayway to save it from damage). All team or pairs events should be non-qualifiers for handicap purposes. Handicaps are only calculated on individual scores.

So that's what the rules were when I was competition/handicap secretary a few years ago!

That was my impression too LP - but the handicap secretary is generally fairly well informed so I wondered where he got this idea from!

Are you saying you regularly had individual (stableford?) NQs in your years as secretary?

Yup, usually because we were always on at least 3 temporary greens. To make things easier, sometimes we limited it to 13 clubs ...

All our comps are NQs from October/November to whenever the course dries out sufficiently to merit the lifting of winter rules.

We had a discussion last year at our place, regarding QC's in the winter. The feeling was that a lot of handicap protection and engineering takes place at clubs who play a lot of winter comp's. We have a lot and it seems pointless to me unless I'm wanting to go backwards.

My away course have 4 QC's between October and November, then nothing until mid March

I wish we did have qualifiers, as indeed does just about everyone at our club. There's a '28' handicapper who, since October, has finished no worse than second in every single Saturday competition, with scores ranging from 38 to 49 points.

So you ALL have individual NQs throughout the winter? (not necessarily every week) - the point is that the claim was that NQs shouldn't be individual.

I still find that hard to believe and what people are saying just seems to back that up

Incidentally, we have a planned qualifier on Sunday this week (though only off the yellows) - if the weather turns freezing as is possible it will be interesting to see if it goes to a NQ and what they will do about it in light of the above message from the committee meeting

I've never heard of that either Davie. Our first comp of the year was on New Years Day and was an individual strokeplay. As a couple of holes were shortened due to the weather conditions it was deemed a non-qualifier.

an individual competition MUST be declared non counting if the competition is played over an 'unmeasured'/'unrated' (no sss rating) course (i.e. from winter tees / to winter greens)

xxx believes this contravenes CONGU as a non-qualifier should not run as an individual competition but rather as a team or pairs event.

this is utter nonsense. clearly the duffus has read somewhere that team/pair competitions cannot be handicap qualifiers, and he has put 2+2 together to make 5.... every club has a few of these

I don't believe that you can set up a competition as a reduction only - it's a calculation that comes out dependant on the scores returned.

What we do at my club is have a Non-Qual off 7/8 handicap - we then monitor the scores and adjust based on observation.

GWR his can't be done, & is totally unacceptable abuse of the CONGU handicapping system.

From other Non-qualifying thread.

It is a fundamental tenet of the UHS that handicap adjustments can only be applied in Qualifying Competitions when handicaps are adjusted,upwards and downwards as appropriate,in relation to the CSS.

To create a situation where handicaps can only be reduced,would distort the balance on which the system is based.To reduce the handicaps of those players scoring below the SSS in Non-Qualifying Competitions is considered to be an unacceptable abuse of the system.

SetupDeterminestheMotion wrote:GWR his can't be done, & is totally unacceptable abuse of the CONGU handicapping system.

From other Non-qualifying thread.

It is a fundamental tenet of the UHS that handicap adjustments can only be applied in Qualifying Competitions when handicaps are adjusted,upwards and downwards as appropriate,in relation to the CSS.

To create a situation where handicaps can only be reduced,would distort the balance on which the system is based.To reduce the handicaps of those players scoring below the SSS in Non-Qualifying Competitions is considered to be an unacceptable abuse of the system.

The rest of the statement reads ..... "Scores returned in Non-Qualifying Competitions can be one of a number of factors to be taken into account in consideration of Clause 19 adjustment.
In the majority of cases, however, it is most unlikely that application of the minimum full stroke reduction imposed by this clause would be justified"

So reductions can be made..

I did not sate that everyone would get cut

SetupDeterminestheMotion wrote:
To create a situation where handicaps can only be reduced,would distort the balance on which the system is based.To reduce the handicaps of those players scoring below the SSS in Non-Qualifying Competitions is considered to be an unacceptable abuse of the system.

The rest of the quote is actually this:

To permit the UHS to operate as intended, all competitions should be run,whenever possible, as Qualifying
Competitions. A number of dispensations for winter play have been granted by CONGU® to
encourage this, including preferred lies and use of artificial mats.

A further decision within the manual reads:

Q. Are there any circumstances under which a club can run Stroke Play, Par/Bogey or Stableford
competitions where handicaps can be reduced but not increased?
A. A club does not have the authority to run competitions in which handicaps can be reduced but
not increased.When a competition is declared Non Qualifying handicaps can neither be reduced
nor increased. There are only two situations within the UHS when handicaps can be reduced
but not increased.These are:
• A competition where application of the CSS calculation determines that the competition is
Reduction Only (R/O). See Clause 8.4.
• When a competition has been abandoned for a valid reason, reductions of handicap are
made on the basis that the CSS is equal to the SSS. See Clause 8.6.

As for using Rule 19, the Non-Qualifying scores can be used to gauge a player's handicap at the annual review, and amended then.

Check rule 23.7 general Play reductions

"In exceptional circumstances the Handicap Committee may adjust the handicap of a player in the period between Annual Reviews....."

I thought I'd resurrect this thread as the subject came up again recently at our course.

This time I actually spoke to the Captain and another committee member about it and I think I understand it now

The CONGU rules are apparently stated the other way around to my original question - what they say is that an individual strokeplay (inc. stableford) competition MUST be deemed a qualifier as long as it is over a proper measured course

As LP pointed out early in the thread, the simple way around this is to make it limited to (say) 13 clubs, which therefore makes it outside of the usual rules of golf and therefore can't be a Qualifier

This came up again last week during the club anniversary weekend celebrations - the Friday comp was aimed particularly at the 5 day members (though 7 day members could also play) - and a lot of the 5 day members are also seniors and don't like to play qualifiers, especially off the whites.

So the comp was played off the yellows, but as this was still a measured course, and it was individual, it was deemed that it HAD to be a qualifier despite some people wanting it to be just a "fun" event. As stated above, if they'd limited to 13 clubs or added some other stipulation that made it contrary to the rules of golf then it could (and must) be deemed a NQ

So it seems the original statement was in fact correct (if slightly badly worded by me) - any individual strokeplay contest over a measured course and played to the normal rules of golf MUST be a qualifier

Next Monday on the bank holiday we have a new President's Cup which will be both a team stableford (best two scores to count) but also with an individual trophy to play for. For this reason, this is also allowed to be (and must be) a NQ as it will be played under team conditions

Davie
From the Scottish Edition of the Congu UHS 2012-15
http://www.scottishgolf.org/go/handicapping
(p29)
I imagine there will be something similar on the EGU website.

17. Qualifying Scores/Qualifying Competitions
Although a club committee or Handicappping Authority has the right to deprive certain competitions of their status as Qualifying competitions this discretion should not be abused. It is considered to be outside the spirit and intent of the UHS to deliberately adjust the terms and conditions of a competition so that it is technically Non Qualifying. Examples of situations used to circumvent and abuse the handicapping rules are:
-The imposition of a limitation to the number of golf clubs a competitor may use (This does not refer to traditional five-club competitions and the like which may continue to be run as Non-Qualifying Competitions).
-Intentionally moving one or more tees forward when a Measured Course is available and in a suitable condition for play.
-Imposing a handicap allowance limitation of, for example, 7/8ths.

LP's credentials for holding court must surely now be under question after this blatant admittance of acting outside the spirit of the UHS...

Thanks Scarpa - that's interesting

So it sounds like quite a few clubs, judging by the replies I got to the original thread, are going against this CONGU rule, particularly in winter

scarpa wrote:LP's credentials for holding court must surely now be under question after this blatant admittance of acting outside the spirit of the UHS...

As I ceased to be involved in the running of golf clubs some three or so years ago,the UHS may have changed ... but the rules only say "should not be abused" not that you should not do it at all. We only did it 2 or 3 times a year, usually in the depths of winter, which I think is perfectly OK. Glad to see I was right anyway

I think by saying it 'should not' be abused - it is pretty clear that it 'should not' be abused

It's a fair point though that, given these are the 2012-15 guidelines, you may be correct that 2 or 3 years ago the guidelines were different.

My place has repeated abused this. And hide behind Rule 19 with "Reduction Only" taking place. I reported them to the SGU, but nothing has happened.