2014 Ryder Cup - 18th hole re-vamp (PGA Centenary)

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/jack_nicklaus_adds_shine_to_gleneagles_18th_1_2091244

Let's face it, any change to the 18th hole would be better than no change so uninspiring is this finishing hole BUT am I the only person who thinks Nicklaus is very one-dimensional when it comes to course design?

The computer-generated pic of the proposed new 18th green in the link just seems like every other bleedin' hole destination he's ever designed. Typical Nicklaus green would be quite wide with comparatively little depth, not that that matters, as you can barely see any of the green because of the banked-up bunkers strewn across the front a la link. He is so predictable.

As I see it, his style of course really doesn't make for an enjoyable experience for yer average golfer. They're designed more for the better male golfer who will be able to hit it further thereby requiring less club to the green, necessary of course to fly the bunkers and still be able to stay on greens which have less depth to them.

I shouldn't be surprised really. He designed the course at the London Club and some years after it opened, when it was announced that a women's event was to be held there, he was, apparently, 'incandescent' protesting that he "didn't build this course for women"!

The sad thing is gael, Gleneagles is completely the wrong venue for the RC. It's not even the best course in Auchterader!

Having played a few of the Nicklaus courses, I found they are designed more for the pros than us mere mortals, do not think I have had a reasonable score(ie played any where near my handicap) on any of them.

Some of the par 4s are a joke, like me you hit it 220/230 yards of the tee, and are then left with a 210/220 yard 2nd shot over water, yes you have a bail out area, and can hit 7 iron and wedge onto the green, but a 440 yard par 4, you would like a 2nd shot at the green, without a 100yards of water in front of it.

I decided some years ago that those Nicklaus courses where not designed for us mere mortals and now give them a miss

It always makes me wonder why at these places, they don't do what some yank courses do. Add a tee box further foward for us mortals, which would make for some good golf instead of playing a load of holes as par 5's or 6's. Get around quicker too

Nail on the head there from all the above posters including Gaels OP.

Imo if you've played one Nicklaus course then you really don't need to play another as they are basically all the same just in a different geographical location.

Firstly to Gael: Nicklaus does seem to fail to take note of female golfers and the game type they play when designing his courses. You mention the London Club I'm lucky enough to play there often and for free as a good friend of mine is Pro there (well one of the pro's) last time I played there was October with my friend and another Pro who is female and just missed LET qualification this year. She hit the ball wonderfully but the majority of the time she just couldn't play for the pins due to the layout.

D4S: how right you are, Gleneagles imo is worst choice of venue for a long time even a return to the Belfry would have been better or the Oxfordshire, Wentworth etc, etc.

OP and Doc: Nicklaus fails to realise Golf exists outside the machismo of the PGA tour locker room therefore anyone that is mere mortal and hits average distances therefore cannot truly enjoy a round of Golf at his courses without having to play bail out shots at holes they should be able at least play for a portion of the green

They had a straight choice of Gleneagles or Turnberry and made a poor decision.
Nicklaus is IMO a poor designer.
The 18th at Gleneagles is a very poor hole far less a Ryder Cup finishing hole.
Looks like an add-on to get back to the clubhouse.

The problem is really the routing of the entire course. All that land to play around with and they end up squashing it in to fit.
Same as the last few holes on the revamped Kintyre course at Turnberry.

Morning guys.

Re the venue, doesn't the selection come down to money? Turnberry would have been a wonderful venue but I just don't think they have the financial clout at the moment.

Re the changes, they are certainly an improvement if only to give some definition. It's a bit of a slog up to the green though and to finish it off with a Nicklaus trademark hole destination: well, I'm wondering which is the better, finishing on an underwhelming note or to finish on a beaten into submission note!

Moving to the Olympics proposed venue, wonder how much say Annika Sorenstam will get in this design partnership?

Rhetorical question!!!

gael thats a good shout. A thing that struck me about some of these top championship courses, was when I played Victoria (Algarve) We played off the yellow tees, which were actually behind the lady pro tees, which struck me as odd, as most blokes playing off the yellows would no way be as good as the lady pro's.

I think the set up of boxes were (Front to back) Juniors, ladies, senior's, lady pro's, yellows, white and men pro's - wow was there huge differences in yardages

I think that just went over a whole lot of heads Gael''

Doc
It used to be the case that, for male Amateurs, Clubs were only allowed two measured tees for competitions.

Only exemptions were clubs that had held National Championships were allowed to use measured blue tees if the course was longer than thier normal white tees.

Would have preferred to take the RC to Sweden or Denmark for a change.

Doc wrote:gael thats a good shout. A thing that struck me about some of these top championship courses, was when I played Victoria (Algarve) We played off the yellow tees, which were actually behind the lady pro tees, which struck me as odd, as most blokes playing off the yellows would no way be as good as the lady pro's.

I think the set up of boxes were (Front to back) Juniors, ladies, senior's, lady pro's, yellows, white and men pro's - wow was there huge differences in yardages

Doc, don't think the female pros have their own tees. I think you'll find those tees are for single-figure female amateurs which is an excellent idea for many of the continental courses come with a large proportion of dog-legs which can be frustrating for the better female amateur if the bend comes too soon.

Doon the Water wrote:I think that just went over a whole lot of heads Gael''

With the Olympics holding both men's and women's events, I regard Nicklaus's 'partnership' as nothing less than a cynical manoeuvre to increase his chances of securing the contract.

Bit of a contrary view here, but I really enjoy playing the Jack Nicklaus courses when I'm on holiday.

There are loads of "Nicklaus Design" courses which vary in quality tremendously and I'm not talking about those, but I find the original Jack Nicklaus courses good fun. They often feature elevated tees which means the hole is laid out in front of you. You can consult the strokesaver and work out your strategy eg whether to carry the fairway bunkers, lay up etc. That's great when you are playing a course for the first time.

Montecastillo and the London club (Heritage) are the perfect examples of this. Fantastic courses to play once a year, but maybe not every week.

I think the problem have with Ryder Cup courses is that they look at them from a strokeplay and not a matchplay point of view.

The 18th makes a lot more sense when you look at it from that point of view.

London Club (Heritage) is IMO the best he has designed on these shores however if you do play it regularly it does become tiresome.

SR makes a good point they need to look at courses which are condusive to matchplay which is why Wentworth would be ideal it hosted the matchplay for years

Maverick wrote:London Club (Heritage) is IMO the best he has designed on these shores however if you do play it regularly it does become tiresome.

SR makes a good point they need to look at courses which are condusive to matchplay which is why Wentworth would be ideal it hosted the matchplay for years

I guess at the Celtic Manor they designed a course specifically for matchplay. Only problem was that they built it at the bottom of a valley, on the flood plain in one of the wettest parts of the country.