Football talking points

Rather than hijack the "which team do you support" thread where some of these are being talked about...

Some of the events of the weekend that are getting people talking

1) Mario Balotelli: plenty to say about him in general but specifically the alleged stamp on Scott Parker and his subsequent charge by the FA

2) Lescott's elbow on Kaboul(?) - FA say no charge to answer

3) Conspiracy theories in general about Man City!

4) Wenger's decision to take Chamberlain off and put Arshavin on - and Van Persie's reaction

5) Peter Crouch and the "eye-gouge"

6) Harry Redknapp and the tax-dodging allegations and court case

Discuss!

Arshavin is the worst Russian sub since the Kursk!

Harry must have blown his England chance now.
Pity as I thought he would make a great England team manager.

I think he'd make a very poor England manager but (at least until this came up) he seemed a racing cert to get the job.

I'm hoping it HAS blown his chance!

Davie, one more to the list that seems to have got under the radar, but now building a head of steam. Ken Bates bashing at Leeds after he sold Jonny Howson to Norwich, to keep his offshore bank account full. fans were outraged and it seems a few more players are due to be going to the premiership, Snodgrass, Clayton, White and Lees could all be gone. So far in the reign of the bearded shyster, Leeds have made £25m (Last 4-seasons well before the fire sale) in player sales and spent £2.5m, which just keeps a once great club firmly fixed in the chamionship. Nobody knows where the money's going but even after beating Man Utd and running Arsenal and Spurs close last season and also Liverpool, with all the gate reciepts from a well supported club, and plenty of tv revenue, Leeds post a small profit each year, but after player trading. So in other words the money vanishes and he keeps selling our best players. I hate the b4stard with a vengence.

For me Ballotelli didn't know he'd done it and was off balance.

Lescott is ugly and looks fire damaged, but should have got a red card.

Man City are just proving that football isn't a fair sport anymore

Oxlade Chamberlain was by far Arsenals best player, so not sure what Whinger was thinking.

Harry Redknapp is well known within football circles as being bung merchant. Possibly because he's had to do deals with Mandraic whose a bent operator. And for those fans that think Harry will be the next England manager, forget it, because he's tainted. personally i would love him in the job as he would get the respect and tactics right so that we actually did something. The FA are a club with no brains but like to play politics, so a great manager like venables who gave England some kudos and got us playing well and feared, was sacked becuase of his checkered bung past. Thats why George Graham cannot get back into football. The best man for the job last time was Martin O'Neil, but the FA said he didn't interview well ... how stupid was that, he actually told them how he would do it and what he expected from the staff, players and FA, which they didn't like, so we got this Italian idiot and made him the wealthiest manager in world football. Yes he one of the greatest club managers, but not an English national manager

1. Balotelli imo was off balance unintentional and is being punshed based on former sins, same way Joey Barton always gets done. So I agree with Doc.

2. Lescotts elbow was blatant and deserving of a red card, yet another poor decision from howard webb

3. They will always be rife as Utd fans are all southerners that jumped on a band wagon in the early 90's and are now realising they are not the team they were and fergie is starting to wind down his career and when he goes they will drift out of top 4, because they are not attracting the big names as city have them.

4.Imo. Wenger lost touch with what the fans want a long time ago when he tried to build a team with youth talent that wasn't even from the better corners of the footballing globe! Arshavin has not been interested in playing for 2years and should be off loaded, instead of looking at problem positions he signs the same type of player time and again.

5. Disgrace the FA doing sweet FA again about something serious, how can they throw the book at balotelli for something like he did compared to Crouches blatant assault.

6. Harry imo has never been good enough to manage our country yes he manages players but his tactics many a time are way off, too dependant on individuals firing on the day rather than getting his team to work as a unit. Hopefully this whole bung issue will see him punished properly and remove him from the running as england manager, we already have one twat in charge we don't need another.

No charges to be brought against Peter Crouch for the eye gouge.

I would like to think that it was accidental by Balotelli as he's really brought the Premiership to life this season. I just love his total madness!

That's the joke of it Mary,

Crouch no charges! Lescott no charges! Ledley King should have been sent off for his foul on balotelli as he was last man and denying goal scoring opportunity.

But no of all the offenders its Balotelli punished for something that's nowhere as near clear cut as the other 3!!!! Farce!!

I think they need to change this rule about "did the referee see it or not"

Howard Webb claims he didn't see the Balotelli incident and states he would have sent him off had he seen it (the fact TV replays seem to show him looking straight at it is irrelevant). As such, Balotelli is fair game for retrospective punishment.

As I understand it, the referee in the Stoke game says he DID see the Crouch incident but thought no contact had been made. As he saw the incident and took no action then it makes it hard, with the rules the way they are, to apply retrospective punishment

I agree with Mav that the Crouch incident seemed the worst of the 3 by a long chalk but I guess the FA are hamstrung by their own rules

I also like Balotelli but my view is that the stamp was completely deliberate, which is a shame, but the ban is deserved.

Sky have really ebhanced football on tv for the viewer and done a great job. BUT the FA uses tv footage to be used as evidence of anything the refereee doesn't pick up. This is different than anywhere else in the world, because many countries don't have the advantage of technology, thereore the idiots at FIFA us a different code. Why are we at odds with the FIFA code, and many other issues in football, no wonder everyone hates us.

Its great for the armchair pundit, to flag up a percieved transgression that the referee doesn't see. Super slow motion is fantastic, but the ref is seeing something that happens in a breath, so not quite fair. Balotelli for me was in a tangle, running across the edge of the box, with a player parker on his back tangled up in Balotelli's legs. Balotelli is trying to keep his feet and is off ballance, and I think he tries to get a foot back on the deck to get a purchase and keep himself upright. happed fast and I saw no malice. With the aid of slow motion you could think that he kicks back or stamps on Parker, but it was the blink of an eye. So for me, he's been treated unfairly and the media are trying to turn this bloke into another Joey Barton.

Maybe the FA should concentrate on making sure referees know how to do their jobs, as i'm sick of seeing red cards brandished for some tackles, which don't even get a yellow card fort the same tackle by a different ref. Also sick of seeing referees have second thoughts about booking a player or giving a penalty, then a couple of minutes later award a really soft penalty because they realise the messed up earlier.

Good performance from Cardiff last night, excellent passing and impressive fitness.
The Championship is a much purer and more interesting spectacle than the poncey Premiership.

Fabulous game on BBC Scotland telly at the moment.
League Cup Semi between Falkirk and Celtic.
Falkirk's nickname is The Bairns as years ago one of thier best teams was made up of youngsters [a la Busby Babes]
This team is mainly youngsters and are playing some beautiful football.
They beat Rangers in an ealier round.
1-1 at half time.
Game on.

3-1 Celtic finish
Great game.
16 and 17 year old playing for Falkirk. The team played some wonderful passing football.
Good tactical switch by Lennon bringing on Ki at half time changed the game.
Falkirk's Higgenbotton from England won MOTM.
If that's the future of Scottish football, look out the rest of the world.

So its OK for John Terry to play for England but not to captain them.
Very strange decision.

What was the alternative then Doon?...it would be more than harsh to exclude him from playing before his trial.

The trial could and should have been set to go ahead before Euro 2012, ridiculous that it is not going to happen until after this event

You are innocent until proved guilty, or have the EFA already made up it's mind as far as the England captains job goes.
They would have done better to just keep quiet and just appoint another captain.
This way it looks like they are pre-judging the issue.

On form he is probably about fourth choice anyway.

Made a rod for their own backs by the sanction handed down to Suaraz, and said at the time that although they had an investigation going, they couldn't do anything as it was now with the police. Terry got the court dates moved due to football reasons, so as soon as the FA heard they would have a captian with a cloud hanging over him, they acted. I think there would have been an outcry in the media if he had still had the armband, and it would have distracted the squad going into the championship. Also potential problems between Rio and Terry, so can see why they did it, but also see why some cry fould as well - The FA have never done anything sensible though.

It can be compared with the energy minister resigning today as he's being prosecuted - inocent until proven guilty, but a distraction for the government, so just like JT

You may well be innocent until proven guilty but the FA isnt a court of law. They can choose who they want to captain England and shouldnt need to give any explanation as to why. If they dont want Terry as skipper thats up to them, doesnt matter if he is saint or sinner. Good riddance to bad rubbish as far as Im concerned, hopefully he will retire in a huff.

He isn't even very good anymore, glacier like speed.

So who is going to step up and take the armband? I suppose Gerrard would be seen by many as the natural choice, if he is fit, although Joe Hart seems to be getting mentioned a lot on the various social network sites.

Rio and Gerrard aren't assured of their places (either by form or because of injuries)

Rooney is suspended for the first two games so I can't see it being him

Scotty Parker is getting lots of mentions and wouldn't be a bad choice - I'd be tempted to give it to Hart though to see how he copes with added responsibilities

If Wilshire was fit I'd say he'd be a good choice too

Never a fan of the keeper having the armband to be honest...

Rio has knocked back being captain again.

Like Blue I'm not a fan of keepers as captains they are commanding in their boxes but not involved enough in outfield play to have a say imo.

Glad Rio wouldn't take it, I don't even see him as a starter for England nor Gerrard he's to prone to injury. Hoping Barry doesn't get a sniff at it either just don't think he's got the character.

If I had to choose I'd look at Parker for his commanding role in the middle leads by example rather than by his gob like Terry, his off field persona is understated and isn't known (at least by us) to shag about about and taunt others on their skin tone.

Only other one I think is a good choice and a long term choice is Gary Cahill, does his job has a presence and has earned his place on his work rate and ability not on who he plays for like a lot of others undeserving of their places e.g Theo....

Not sure if this is the right thread but Wolves have been awful in is second half. Didn't see the first so can't comment. They hit the bar and Fister has made a couple of saves but the Baggies could have scored many, many more. At times it looks like that they have given up.

Even as I typed this they scored again!

On the subject of England captain, I know a few people have said they don't like goalkeepers as captains but as I see it, Joe Hart is probably the only player guaranteed a place at the moment

Got to be an outfield player for me Davie, either a central defender or a central midfielder. Only from those positions can the captain have the most influence on what is going on around them

Hasn't done Spain any harm Blue.

That is very true Digs...just not convinced that Joe Hart would be the right captain for us though

No I agree, though he is looking like being one of our few world class players (not there yet despite the hyperbole). If Gerrards fit then he's fine for me as skipper. Or Parker or Barry, though doubt both will play in the same team.
But if you decided on the young player, long term option then Hart would be on the frame. All the guys with potential like Jones and Cahill are not assured of a place, Cahill shouldn't be near the squad on form, he's had a schocker of a season so far which is a shame as he looked good last year. Jones is just too young and needs to concentrate on becoming a really good player.
Wilshire might be an option when fit I guess.

Poor old Mick McCarthy bites the dust and you have to feel sorry for him. he took Wolves into the premiership and has kept them there for quite a while, without the funds of some in that league.

Everyone (Except Roy Keane) only have good things to say about him, as he's great with the players, demands respect and has no patience with some of the idiot media.

I'm hoping we get him at Leeds as he has the CV to sort things out at our club, and the difference between him and Warnock is that he can stay in the prem, whereas Warnock has been there twice and sacked without success. No chance of big Mick working with Ken bates though so no chance

Rangers are in administration.

Doc wrote:Poor old Mick McCarthy bites the dust and you have to feel sorry for him. he took Wolves into the premiership and has kept them there for quite a while, without the funds of some in that league.

Everyone (Except Roy Keane) only have good things to say about him, as he's great with the players, demands respect and has no patience with some of the idiot media.

I'm hoping we get him at Leeds as he has the CV to sort things out at our club, and the difference between him and Warnock is that he can stay in the prem, whereas Warnock has been there twice and sacked without success. No chance of big Mick working with Ken bates though so no chance

I certainly dont have anything good to say about him or feel remotely sorry for him, the guy was utterly uselss as Sunderland manager. I also cant abide "hey up, I speak as I find" professional northerns which he typifies. And I speak as a northerner.
The guy has earned millions being utterly average at his job at best, and we are meant to feel sorry for him. Sorry, not me.

Doon the Water wrote:Rangers are in administration.

Rangers have filed their intention to go into administration...slightly different Doon...In golfing parlance it's like the difference between.

Jeez 102 today I had a shocker!! = In administration

I'm playing so mince and striking the ball so poorly I think 1 might shoot 102 in the next couple of weeks = Signalling the intention that administration may be required.

A time for Rangers fans the world over to maintain their sense of humour...and look in their pockets for any loose change

Jas
Is this Whyte playing hardball with the taxman, if so it's not a very clever move IMO. maybe he has no choice
Never mind we Jambos will probably join you next week!

Doon the Water wrote:Jas
Is this Whyte playing hardball with the taxman, if so it's not a very clever move IMO. maybe he has no choice
Never mind we Jambos will probably join you next week!

I think he is Doon, I think he registered Rangers 2012 at Companys House about 5 months ago too. He is letting them know that he'll sink the boat rather than be made an example of and that will leave them with zip and he can build the club from scratch and make a good profit in the long term (I believe that is his normal business model).

Read the following on a Man U forum earlier...
'Sad state of affairs when Chelsea can spend more than that on an under performing Torres and that figure could spell the end of a bigger club.' That is the beauty of the league that Sky built compared to the league that ITV Digital burst!

So the fall into administration is now official - the 10 point penalty will apparently apply immediately.

Sad day for Scottish football - is this the beginning of the end of the SPL?

Good. I hate the way that certain people / businesses / football clubs view tax as optional, whereas for us "common people" it is very much compulsory.

raycastleunited wrote:Good. I hate the way that certain people / businesses / football clubs view tax as optional, whereas for us "common people" it is very much compulsory.

Indeed. I hate it when HMRC lose out due to clubs not paying their bills. It means we're all losing out.

The football authorities should add HMRC as a preferred creditor to rank equally with football creditors.

I don't suppose that HM Revenue will see any of the outstanding tax, disputed or not, now that Mr Whyte has decided to take the administration route.

I read that HM Revenue wrote off around 11 billion in unpaid tax for 2010. Makes writing a cheque every six months to pay your own tax bill such a joy when you hear a statistic like that...

I did a lot of legwork during the Bates administration fiasco at Leeds, and the way he shafted the local businesses to make a quid. he obviously then stole it out of administration for himself but thats another story.

I found out that during the Leeds debacle, that HMRC were going to go after all things football related as they were sick of being shafted. I 100% agree with them because the money clubs don't pay means that we and I mean all of us are subsidising football in this country. The football creditor rule is an absolute joke and should be changed immediatley. For those who are not aware of this, it works like this:

Every business in England who goes into administration, need to put together a CVA to exit administration. This means a deal needs to be done to give some form of compensation to all its creditors, which HMRC will be one of a number. In football its different from every other form of business, as clubs, players, agents, managers, coaches are obliged to be paid in full before anything else is done. This means that joe small supplier and HMRC are trying to get a bit of whats left, which is usually nothing or penny in the pound, whilst players etc walk away with mega money. If you work for a company that goes bust you become a creditor, and will be paid a % of the wages you are owed at the end of the administration process, just like eberyone else.

No wonder HMRC are going after football in a big way, because they see how millions are put into offshore accounts, agents fees running into millions, Harrygate in Monaco banks, foriegn players coming over and demanding 'netto' (Slang speak for wanting massive net wages and not bothered about tax) Why should cluibs not pay their VAT or PAYE on time like the rest of industry. They're not a special case as they've frittered away the family silver over many years and its not fair that we should make up their losses through gross financial negligence. I don't want to subsidise football clubs

I wasn't aware of those details, that is unbelievable! I don't understand why football should have the benefit of a different set of rules?

Good post Doc, very informative

Doc wrote:... HMRC were going to go after all things football related as they were sick of being shafted. I 100% agree with them because the money clubs don't pay means that we and I mean all of us are subsidising football in this country.

Good stuff Doc. Based on the legwork you did and what you learned, what would be the most logical, legal and practical way to change the current system of subsidies for the football industry and how long would it take to enact and become effective?

Very interesting Doc. Blimey!

Glad to say that Hearts have now payed thier tax bill.
Gives me the moral highground over Rangers now.

Is the sly hand of Romanov at work here?

Indubitably Doon. Tax man aside, for someone who's supposed to be billionaire, it's a pretty poor do holding back on players wages though.

Doc wrote:

No wonder HMRC are going after football in a big way, because they see how millions are put into offshore accounts, agents fees running into millions, Harrygate in Monaco banks, foriegn players coming over and demanding 'netto' (Slang speak for wanting massive net wages and not bothered about tax) Why should cluibs not pay their VAT or PAYE on time like the rest of industry. They're not a special case as they've frittered away the family silver over many years and its not fair that we should make up their losses through gross financial negligence. I don't want to subsidise football clubs

They could have picked a more lucrative target Doc...i.e. a technically solvent one that wouldn't run off and do exactly what Rangers are going to do.....Or....is it not about the money? Is it more about the symbolism of bringing a huge institution to it's knees just to show how seriously they mean business.

If only our HMRC were running the Greek economy...the Eurozone would be in a much better state!!

JAS wrote:

They could have picked a more lucrative target Doc...i.e. a technically solvent one that wouldn't run off and do exactly what Rangers are going to do.....Or....is it not about the money? Is it more about the symbolism of bringing a huge institution to it's knees just to show how seriously they mean business.

I think it is important to keep in mind that what Rangers (or rather MIH who owned Rangers) were doing isn't illegal... they just didn't operate it properly and fell foul of the rules (and legal people have suggested that Rangers have put forward a good case at the tribunal). If other clubs (more solvent targets) are operating an Employee Benefits Trust, they aren't breaking the law unless they are failing to stick to the guidelines for doing so. There is a myth that this is a test case and they will go after wealthier English clubs, but unless they ave used a poor model like Rangers have there is nothing to suggest they have much to fear.

What embarrasses me as a Rangers fan is that the HMRC will get next to nothing, Craig Whyte is an opportunistic crook. It has been his intention from day 1 to take this club into administration and pay off the debts on the cheap so that he can profit from the club in the long term. How can I say this? Because he hasn't paid any tax since he took over! He also had conditions with the sale that meant he HAD to make sure this debt was managed properly, the team was invested in and it transpires he has bought the club with credit based on season ticket sales... he has barely put a penny into the club since taking over or upheld his other commitments of sale. I really am completely dismayed by this outcome but not surprised as it is no secret that this has been highly probable.

Ok to be fair when I say "exactly what Rangers are going to do" that should read..."exactly what Whyte is going to do"

From what I'm given to understand is that whilst EBT's are perfectly legal as you say (as a way of tax avoidance), the way Rangers administered theirs did not meet the rules of the scheme, therefore not enough tax was paid which equals Tax Evasion which is (the last time I checked) illegal.

I'll reiterate the question I asked on the other board though...If HMRC were so put out by the way Rangers were operating the EBT scheme why didn't they challenge it waaaaay earlier than they did? (were the Revenue Investigation Team Sellick Supporters who quite happily let the problem grow & grow??) and why oh why didn't an auditor spot the potential irregularity (nobody seems able to answer that on the other boards).

To be honest Redrage I used to go every week when I still lived up in Jockland but I've got very little interest in it now as I've been disillusioned with the complete and utter skewed financial imbalance in football nowadays. If it weren't for the golf I'd cancel my Sky subscription...They've got a lot to answer for the rancid stench that oozes out of every pore of football at the moment.

With regard to HMRC...how often has their blind intransigence and inability to negotiate in a business sense cost them(us)??