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Is This handicap engineering?

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Post by Doc Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:03 pm

Since returning from illness, I've been playing quite well and being fairly consistent. My handicap went inactive last season due to only playing 2 QC events, then my golf club shut the doors on the membership and we all had to look elsewhere. The club I'm at now is a tougher test, but I'm not really bothered about playing in any of their club events. I do however need my handicap sorting so that I can play in 'opens' and of course may get asked for it when abroad. Spoke to the handicap secretary and he told me to hand in 3 cards signed by a member, in general play. Looking at these 3 cards I think I will get cut by 3 strokes, and on the one hand thats exactly what I want, but ...... I've been playing in conditions that are not the norm, the ball has been running and running so that I'm playing short irons instead of fairway woods etc. So if I hand these cards in and get cut, am I in danger of having a handicap that will hurt me and not be a true reflection, or will it actually be a good barometer?
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Post by LondonJonnyO Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:07 am

In these conditions you do get a lot more run it's true... so what might be a 7 iron could be a 9.

But more relevant is the fact that if you turn it over it's going to hit and move further offline. So there is greater scope for hitting it in the woods, water, whatever else you might have as hazards down the side of the holes. So you need to be a hell of lot straigher in the fast conditions.

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Post by Noshanking Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:30 am

Doc, I recently shot nett 65 in a medal and did not get cut one iota..... neither did I make the top 10 which I found quite incredible... Moral of the story, if the course is playing easier for you then it will probably be easier for a lot of other players too and you will be less likely to get cut than by shooting low in more challenging conditions when the majority don't fair so well.
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Post by Doc Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:41 am

Noshanking wrote:Doc, I recently shot nett 65 in a medal and did not get cut one iota..... neither did I make the top 10 which I found quite incredible... Moral of the story, if the course is playing easier for you then it will probably be easier for a lot of other players too and you will be less likely to get cut than by shooting low in more challenging conditions when the majority don't fair so well.

Noshanks, makes perfect sense thanks. That would be in medals etc, but are the same criteria used by the handicap sec, for reviewing 3 cards. I have dated them etc ...... If he doesn't look at at the scratch conditions for the relevant dates, then I will be chopped by 3 strokes, whereas if I were playing in a QC probably not get cut as per your experience???? So I could be cut unfairly, I think thats my question ...... if you get my drift Cross Fingers
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Post by LadyPutt Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:11 am

I certainly get your drift, Doc. It is unfair that if you have to submit 3 random cards to re-active your handicap, you do not benefit from the CSS on the day whereas if you were playing in a competition, you would. My understanding was that if your handicap was "inactive" you can still enter competitions in order to re-active it. Here's an extract from England Golf's website:

"It must be stressed that an Inactive handicap is still an official CONGU handicap and can be used as before. A Club may however impose conditions within some competitions whereby those with Inactive handicaps are prevented from entering the event or from winning prizes. Clubs wishing to impose such restrictions however should give all those with an Inactive handicap every opportunity to return the stipulated number of qualifying scores required for an Active handicap by competing in qualifying competitions. Restricted them from winning prizes would be permitted."

It looks as though you should challenge your new club as, even though it came from another club, you still have a handicap, even though it is "inactive".
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Post by Noshanking Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:26 am

At our club there are certain comps that you not only have to have an active handicap, but need to have played at least 6 comps to enter and WIN.  However, could you not enter comps to reactivate your handicap (which is what I am now doing after 18 months lay-off from club membership). That way the SSC would more accurately reflect how you are doing against fellow competitors as LP has stated and quoted above. I can understand not be able to WIN but not even being able to enter comps seems a bit harsh unless the comps at your club become oversubscribed.
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Post by scarpa Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:49 am

The adjusted scratch score (nothing worse than a d.bogey) will be reviewed against the sss rating of the course/tees you played. Even if you submitted rounds during competition where a CSS rating was present this shouldn't be relevant or considered under congu guidelines. HOWEVER(!) as you have previously held a handicap, recent or otherwise, this ought to be considered by the committee. Providing your cards submitted are not considerably better, and you haven't specifically made a comment to support your submission, I.e. Best three rounds I've played in ages..., I'd probably expect you'd be given you're o ld handicap, perhaps a little better, but monitor carefully to assure you're competitive round which ffollow don't show major discrepancies I.e. Obvious hcp engineering. That's all off the top of my head but congu had a pretty clear section on their UHS document which is easily downloaded.
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Post by Doc Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:02 am

Thanks all, and I know I could play in club comps with my inactive h/c etc, just not bothered about doing it as I'm usually away at weekends.

I guess i'll just take a gamble and if I get cut so be it
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Post by Mary_S Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:16 am

At the Seniors roll-up, people are allowed to enter the comp but declare beforehand if they do not want their score to count for handicap purposes. With the dry conditions, there have been people winning the comp (and money) with 45 points and not getting a cut. Whereas somebody whose objective is to get a better handicap is, say, coming 5th or 6th, and getting a cut, so the winner has even more advantage the following week.

Just seemed a bit strange to me - is this normal practice at other clubs.

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Post by Davie Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:25 am

I've never heard that before Mary - and I doubt it's even legal under CONGU
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Post by Mary_S Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:35 am

Thanks Davie!  For once it isn't the ladies section making up their own rules - my brother plays in the seniors, and he mentioned it the other day.

Apparently the rationale is to encourage more people to play, because some people have said that they get nervous playing in comps, so avoid them because it affects their handicap. it would seem that if it's only prize money at stake, they don't get nervous! Innocent 
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Post by Davie Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:06 am

I can fully understand that thinking if they were just playing for fun but shouldn't be eligible for prizes! Evil or Very Mad 

Unless of course it was a private pot in which case the organizers get all they deserve
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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:24 am

This sounds like complete banditry...

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Post by smithersjones Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:11 am

Why would anyone go for the handicap option if others aren't? That just sounds mental.

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Post by Noshanking Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:12 am

We have a Friday night roll-up over nine holes. You have to have an active handicap to enter and you put your pound in the pot. There a few players who seldom play in comps (just the three to keep their active handicap) but who roll in week after week with scores of 25+. It's got that some people just won't play because you've got little chance against blokes who are claiming handicaps of 23-25 yet playing to about 12. The roll-up doesn't count for handicap purposes. Just seems a bit sad and pathetic to me that you would maintain an elevated handicap merely to scoop a £25-30 pot Is This handicap engineering? 3701139441
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Post by Davie Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:49 pm

We have a similar roll up scheme on Wednesday evenings which also are NQs but they run a similar strategy to societies in that if you win a roll up you get a 2 shot cut for the next roll up only. Ne effect on "real" handicap but it tries to stop what you describe
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Post by Mary_S Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:54 pm

smithersjones wrote:Why would anyone go for the handicap option if others aren't? That just sounds mental.

It was the first week that they'd brought this in, and my brother wasn't aware of the change. Although, he only plays once or twice a week and his aim to is to improve his handicap, so I guess that he may have chosen to go for a qualifier anyway? I can't imagine that they will keep this option permanently, as it offers too many opportunities for banditry!

Thanks for all the replies - very interesting.

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Post by Doc Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:28 pm

Yesterday I played a bounce game with the handicap sec from my old club. We decided on match play and then she asked me if I was still off 18? I mentioned my dilema and she said "in the spirit of the game you should hand in the cards and take whatever cut the cards dictate" Obviously she was going to be better off in our little game as marked me as playing off 15. After parring the 1st and nearly aceing the 2nd after hitting the pin, for a tap in birdie. almost birdying the 3rd, she said "your game has improved significantly and no way are you still an 18 handicapper, and this is a much more difficult course".

I do feel good about my game at the moment, but as the rain started falling yesterday, so did some of my game. I won the match, but was lucky.

Anyway, the cards are going in this week.
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Post by Doc Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:02 pm

I've done the deed and the situation is worse than I thought!!! I'm now playing off 13.9, so a whole 4 shot cut. I'm playing in an invitation this weekend at Vale Royal which is a toughie, where I've not had much luck in the past. So I should get an idea where I am after this.

Seems I'm going to be easy money with my mates Sad
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Post by scarpa Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:03 pm

Here's what they'll have been referring to. Well done getting the cut - you're clearly good enough, so be +'ve.

CONGU UHS wrote:16. ALLOTMENT OF HANDICAPS
6. A handicap can be allotted only to aMember of an AffiliatedClub and after full consideration of his previous
playing history, including any handicap held previously at any other club or under another handicap system.
6.2 To obtain a handicap a player must submit such number of cards over 9 or 8 holes in such manner
as his Home Club requires,with an expectation that the norm will be three 8-hole cards.However,
any permutation of 9 and 8-hole cards may be submitted but must total a minimum of 54 holes at
his Home Club (preferably over a Measured Course). Each card must be marked and signed by a
responsible person acceptable to the Handicap Committee. The requisite cards should normally be
submitted within a period of six months.
6.3 The Handicap Committee has the following responsibilities and discretions in regard to the allotment
of handicaps.
(a) If a handicap has been previously held, refer to Clause 26 (Regaining a Handicap).
Otherwise:
(b) When reviewing the submitted cards, any score of more than 2 over Par for men and 3 over
Par for ladies at any hole must be amended to 2 [3] over Par respectively. After these
adjustments have been made an Exact Handicap shall, subject to the provisions of Clause
6.3(c), be allotted equivalent to whichever is the lower of:
the number of strokes by which the best of the submitted 8-hole rounds differs from the
Standard Scratch Score, or - the aggregate number of strokes by which the best two of the
submitted 9-hole rounds differs fromtheDesignated Nine-Hole Course Standard Scratch Score.
The player’s Playing Handicap shall equal the Exact Handicap allotted.
(c) The Handicap Committee must consider all the information available to them in relation to the
player’s ability and any previously held handicap before allotment of a handicap. After due
consideration, the Handicap Committee may allot a player an initial whole number Exact
Handicap less than the best adjusted score if it has reason to consider that a lower handicap is
more appropriate to the player’s ability. In exceptional circumstances a higher handicap may
be allotted than that indicated by the best adjusted score.
(d) The Handicap Committee should review the initial Qualifying Scores returned by all Members
to whom a handicap has recently been allotted. If the Handicap Committee determines that an
adjustment is required to a Member’s recently allotted handicap, this must be administered in
accordance with the provisions of Clause 23 (B).
(e) When a player fails to return cards to justify an Exact Handicap of 28.0 [36.0] he may, at the
discretion of the Handicap Committee, be given an Exact Handicap of 28.0 [36.0].
(f) A player must not be allotted a Category handicap without the authority of the Union or Area
Authority if so delegated.TheUnion should record allCategory Handicap allocations authorised.
6.4 The maximum handicap that can be allotted is 28 for men and 36 for ladies. (Maximum Exact
Handicap 28.0 [36.0]). The maximum Disability Golf Handicap, that may be allotted to a person
with a recognised disability, is 54 (Maximum Exact Handicap 54.0 [54.0]).
C O N G U ® U N I F I E D H A N D I C A P P I N G S Y S T E M
28
In the context of the UHS the ‘Aff iliated Club’ is the club affiliated to a Union/Area Authority which
pays to that Union/Area Authority a specified per capita fee in respect of each eligibleMember i.e. a golf
club may have more than one ‘Aff iliated Club’, one affiliated to a Ladies’Union and another affiliated
to the Men’s Union in that country.
If a golf club has more than one Aff iliated Club and more than one Handicap Committee (Clause 6.3)
they, the Aff iliated Clubs/Handicap Committees, should seek to agree common criteria for the allotment
and review of handicaps.
16.3/1 Allotment ofHandicap LowerThanThat Calculated
Q. In what circumstances can a club allocate a handicap lower than that calculated by Clause 16.3?
A. The Handicap Committee may allot an initial whole number Exact Handicap less than the best
adjusted score if it has reason to consider that a lower handicap is more appropriate to the player’s
ability. Factors to be considered include:
• Previous playing history and any lower handicap previously held at the Home Club or at any
other club.This is of paramount importance.
• Time of year and prevailing weather conditions when cards submitted.
• Information from peers.
• A handicap held under another handicapping system.
Additional information is available in Blue Box 23/5 which gives guidance on ‘Adjusting Newly
Allocated Playing Handicaps’ in appropriate circumstances.
Decisions Relevant to Clause 16
8(a) Status of ‘Handicap Only’ or ‘Competition Handicap’ (or the like) Categories of Golf Club
Membership in the Context of Definition of a Member.


26. REGAININGAHANDICAP
FOLLOWINGSUSPENSIONANDLOSSOFHANDICAP
26. If the handicap of a player is to be restored within six months of the date on which his handicap was
lost, or suspended, it must be reinstated at the same handicap the player last held. In all other cases
the player shall be allotted a new handicap after he has complied with the requirements of Clause
6.
C O N G U ® U N I F I E D H A N D I C A P P I N G S Y S T E M
47
26.2 When restoring a handicap which has been lost or suspended for more than six months the Handicap
Committee, in addition to proceeding as required by Clause 6,must give due and full consideration
to the handicap the player last held. A Category handicap must not be allotted without the approval
of the Union or Area Authority if so delegated.
ALTERINGTHE STATUSOF AHANDICAP
26.3 A player whose status of handicap has under the provision of Clause 25.
(a) not been marked as a ’Competition Handicap’, or
(b) has been marked as an ’Inactive Handicap’
can regain a Playing Handicap after he has complied with the requirements of Clause 6.2.
26.4 When a handicap is being regained in accordance with Clause 26.3, the Handicap Committee should
proceed as required by Clause 6 and in addition give due consideration to the handicap the player
last held, his age and potential playing ability.
26.5 A Category handicap must not be allotted without the approval of the Union or Area Authority if
so delegated.
C O N G U ® U N I F I E D H A N D I C A P P I N G S Y S T E M
48
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Post by Noshanking Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:02 am

Doc wrote:I've done the deed and the situation is worse than I thought!!! I'm now playing off 13.9, so a whole 4 shot cut. I'm playing in an invitation this weekend at Vale Royal which is a toughie, where I've not had much luck in the past. So I should get an idea where I am after this.

Seems I'm going to be easy money with my mates Sad
Or maybe you will live up to your new handicap and think and play like a 14-handicapper......I shot 83 in a bounce game at the weekend off 21 handicap, but we played strict medal rules as there was beer on it. SSC of 64, but should still get cut if I can produce that in the upcoming comps over next weekends✝ 
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Post by Mary_S Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:17 pm

Well done on the official cut Doc. Smile  As NoShanking and Dr Bob advise, visualise yourself playing as a 14 handicapper, and it will happen. Wink 
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