London 2012 Olympics

First topic message reminder :

Well we don't really have anywhere to talk about the Olympics yet (good or bad) - though we've had a thread about the infrastructure, nothing really yet about the actual games

So here it is! A place to talk about anything Olympic related

I see Team GB Football has a final warm up match tonight against Brazil (pre-tournament favourites) - who thought that up? If we have ANY thoughts of progressing in the tournament, is it really wise to play the pre-tourney favourites less than a week before the start?

Smacks of promo material only, and not a wise sporting decision - I understand we are 1-0 down already - is it being shown anywhere?

Maybe the problem isn't as complex as you've indicated on your other topic Doc - perhaps it's just that, with a few exceptions, our track and field team just aren't as good as we've been led to believe

Jess is the obvious exception - I feared Mo might come into that category also, but thankfully he delivered.

No shame in "only" finishing 4th for Dai Greene but perhaps that's all he was worth rather than the big gold medal hope the media would have us believe

Seriously ? I dont have a clue what you two guys are on. We had a target of 8 medals which I always thought was a tough ask. We have 4 including 3 golds....none of those medals were bankers Doc, thats just nonsense. CO was not even expected to make the final on her times ran, she did great to medal. Rutherford was a brilliant win and winning a 10k is always a massive ask as the talent pool is huge.
Dai didnt massively underperform, he ran about tha same tiem as we ran in the worlds last year and has probably only ran quicker a handful of times ever. Bleasdale is a kid and conditions for vaulting were shocking last night so having a go at her would be pretty poor.
So basically our supposed failure is based on Dai not medalling and maybe Idama not medalling...but she is 40 so maybe we can cut her some slack.
We are not an athletics superpower, there is so much competition from the Americand and Russians and obviously the Jamacian sprinters, its incredibly hard to medal.
Hopefully Mo will pick up a medal in the 5k, Grabarz maybe in the high jump. We will see how fit Idowu and Sayers are this morning.
You are being way to harsh on them IMO.

Don't know why you are including me in your reply Digs - I think you and I are agreeing. If anything, I'm saying it's the media to blame for building the hopes up too high - not the athletes

I wasnt including you Davie, was referencing LP and Doc.

Ah OK sorry - it was the gender-neutral "guys" that confused me

No worries. Gutting to see Sayers injured, was hoping to watch her live on Thursday, tweaked a ligament the same night see threw a UK record, how gutting must that have been. Also sad to see Pozzi go out, he is going to have a bright future though.
Find out about Phillips shortly. Take about a storm in a teacup with him going supposedly missing. Hello, the guy has to give his location every day for possible doping so UK athletics always knew exactly where he was.

They were at it again yesterday LP with the uneven bars final and Gabby Douglas. Shame she didn't make it but great work by Beth Tweddle in the same final to take bronze

Diggers you say we're not an athletics superpower agreed, but we will under perform again, besides the fantastic 3 on Saturday. As for Bleasdale if you re read what I said, i mentioned it was a great experience for her as she's really a novice at this level. Why are we a super power at cycling and rowing, when a few years ago we were trailing in the wake of new Zealand, Australia, USA, France etc. These countries are now trying to replicate what we do in these sports. Our athletics bodies need to sort themselves out and get organised if they intend to move forward. At the moment they're wasting millions every year in supporting athletes/coaches who are not managed. We have however been superpowers in quite a few track and field disciplines, so why has that vanished. I think its gone backwards because everyone else changed and we stayed the same. Sprinting has always been one of our biggies, but besides maybe having a chance in the relays this time, we're nowhere, middle distance another biggy has also gone backwards and you can feel the disapointment of our commentators because they expected more from some of our athletes too, and they know what they're talking about having medalled in Olympics.

We have the world junior sprint champion so thats something to look forward to, but our sprinters live in an era with several all time greats, its not easy.
The Africans have completely changed the dynamic in middle distance running, we are so lucky to have Mo its not true.
There is a fair bit of young talent about, Gemili, Pozzi, Clarke, Bleasdale, Jodie Williams, Okoye to name a few. These games came a bit soon for them but there is plenty of good athletes around.
It cant be brilliant in all sports all the time and when you are predicted one gold and already have 3 then its hardly a disaster thus far.

Nothing for Idowu though

Diggers our sprinters have always been competing in a 'golden age' right the way back to Allan Wells. Remember Linford getting bronze in the fastest 100 mts ever seen against amazing athletes and the odd cheat. Linford winning gold against the best. The last few years we've seen the likes of Gardner break through, but nobodies replaced them. It doesn't bode well when our own cheat is still the best we have but at the end of his career.

Remember that besides Bolt, the times are still around the same as Linford's, so not much has improved

Linford ran 9.92 to get gold Doc, that wouldnt have got bronze this timE around so Im afraid I cant agree. Wells was running in an era against relatively poor yanks who lets forget were not even in Moscow. Wells best time 10.11, won gold in slower than that.
These guys churn out times in the 9.8's all the time, Christie broke 9.9 once. Powell, Blake, Gatiln and Gay and Bolt are all way quicker consistently. Plus behind that you have a whole host of other guys who are very quick.
Its not that we have ever been amazing at sprint, its just that we produced one exceptional athlete in Christie. If you dont believe me take a look at the UK all time rankings, hardly awe inspiring
http://www.thepowerof10.info/rankings/rankinglist.aspx?event=100&agegroup=ALL&sex=M&alltime=y

OK Diggs so if we haven't progressed then it backs up my argument for getting organised better, because unless we do we will just be also-rans going forward.

The Rutherford gold medal is a good example, because the kid struggled with hamstring injuries endlessly. His coach had the foresight to look at ways of getting rid of this and decided the only way was to change Rutherfords run up and take off action. he looked at the great Carl Lewis who was the best, and noticed his hip movement at take off. They copied this and its been a winner since, and Rutherford is now saying that once he gets the actual hip movement perfected, he'll go really long. The little details, the sports science anything that will give an individual a slight gain is the only way to go. Whats the use of coaches doing exactly the same thing and get no better results? And in many cases worse results.

Why have many of our athletes arrived in London not at their peak, or injured. This should be the pinnacle of their careers and after being funded for 4-years surley we need to see a return on that investment, even if that's only PB's.

There is no we havent progressed. As I said. We just havent been lucky enough to produce a truly exceptional athlete. If you want to look at is a top 10 for the 100 we had 9th and 10th best...so hardly a disaster in that sense. Especially as one is 18 years old.
We have a lot to find out about Rutherford, the distances are low right now in long jump, so to compare that event to the 100 doesnt really make sense. Maybe he will jump further, maybe he wont. But you seem to want to globally criticse athletics for not managing their injuries and peaking but clearly we havve examples in CO and Rutherford who did just that, you cant have it both ways.
They cant all win you know, other athletes are out there trying to win the medals as well.

Diggers I'm not critising all our athletes, far from it. But Rooney is a case in point. He finished 6th in the final in Bejing a creditable performance. 4-years later he's still our best but can't even get anywhere near his times of 4-years ago. So wheres the problem, because Bejing was supposed to give the kid experience and ready him for London, but he's gone backwards. Surely we look for year on year improvements, but many haven't done that, and thats down to management.

I'm not even going to criticise Idowu as he says he hasn't taken a penny from UKAA or lottery for 3-years, but I'm afraid the majority have.

Whats wrong in having one head coach in charge of all the sprinters and their individual coaches. making sure that each athlete is looked at in a scientific way, making sure nutrition etc is looked at. Then give each athletes coach a bespoke programme to follow, and of course still have the individual personal touch between coach and athlete. The coach is responsible for following the programme and keeping in touch with the sprint supremo etc, etc, etc. Its no use every athlete just doing their own thing, because its obviously not working for many, as they are going backwards.

And no we can't win everything, but because of the way Rowing and cycling is organised, we went and had a go at everything and it almost worked. Not one person in those teams has under performed and thats the bit the athletics need to grasp.

I dont really see how you can have a central coach in athletics Doc, it doesnt happen in the States or Kenya, they just have huge talent pools which we dont have. The swimmers pretty much work as one group and they didnt achieve so there is no guarantees it will work.
Also we are talking about the best athletes earning money on the circuit so they have their own agendas to work to.
Every country has stacks of athletes like Rooney, they dont always come through, thats just the way it is sometimes. Not about lack of effort or anything like that, just masses of talent from around the world that they have to beat.
Ultimately I think you are just being a bit harsh on them, Id have ripped your arm off if you had offered me the medals we have now at the start of the athletics with hopefully a couple more to come.

The athletes will never improve, unless they are exceptional like jess/Mo etc. They need to be managed and put into a pressure cooker/greenhouse so that they bounce off each other. Athletics is a wide area, but I used the example of a sprint supremo responsible for making sure they all do whats expected of them, and their coaches. Endurance/distance supremo, middle distance supremo etc, etc, etc. The cyclists and rowers all have their own coaches, but these coaches report to the head coach. many of them train together every day and have regular meets.

But as you say the athletes, or many of them, reach a certain level and then enter diamond league meetings, instead of looking after themselves. many of them are using funding to further their bank accounts instead of giving a return on the investment.

The rowers and cyclists are competing all around the world constantly and all at a top level. There sprints, endurance and distance specialists just as in athletics, but only the rowers and cyclists show improved results. I'm advocating a change in athletics thats all.

Diggers have a read of this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19144983

Sport funding for Team GB, of which over £51m has been wasted for no return. It also seems like £2.5m per medal is the acceptable price of success, but as yet athletics is massively under achieving at a cost of £6.275m per medal, but athletics is not over yet. Canoeing is so far costing us £8m per medal, but may see more in the sprints later this week. Is £16.m acceptable per medal for equestrian events, with maybe some more to come. But sailing so far is costing £23m per medal.

So I think we need to target where our limited funding goes and penalise/sanction those who seem to have wasted money or even stop funding of some minor sports and give more where needed. But also look at how much money is pumped into sailing, and if £23m per medal is value. Swimming at over £8m is not value for money and I would hope for some more success in track and field because over £6m per medal in athletics is not value for money.

Archery £4.4m zero medals
Athletics £25.1m £6.275m per medal (so far)
Badminton £7.4m zero medals
Basketball £8.6m zero medals
Boxing £9.5m £2m per medal
Canoeing £16.1m £8m per medal
Cycling £26m £2.1m per medal
Diving £6.5m zero medals
Equestrian £13.3m £6.5 per medal so far
Fencing £2.5m zero medals
Handball £2.9m zero medals
Hockey £15m zero medals so far
Judo £7.5m £4.25m per medal
Mod Pent £6.3m zero medals so far
Rowing £27.3m £3m per medal
Sailing £23m £11.5m per medal
Shooting £2.5m £2.5m per medal
Swimming £25.1m £8.4m per medal
Syncro Swm £3.4m zero medals
Table Tennis £1.2m zero medals
Taekwondo £4.8m zero medals so far
Triathlon £5.3 £2.6m per medal
Volleyball £3.5m zero medals
Water Polo £2.9m zero medals
Weightlftg £1.4m zero medals
Wrestling £1.4m zero medals
Tennis self funded and returned 2 medals

How do you define value for money Doc ? In terms of the British public is ahletics the most watched sport, the one we want to see succes in the most ? Id say yes, so does that mean we get more value as a population from an athletics medal ? Id say yes again.

Diggers if your theory was correct then Sky Sports would be pumping cash into athletics and televising it rather than football. So obviously way off the mark. The only time the great british public watch athletics is when the BBc get around to showing a major championship, and even then it doesn't get veiwing figures anywhere near what they used to be. So really athletics is starting to be a minority sport, but agree that at the moment and every 4-years it gets a lot more interest. Athletics is mainly shown on minor chanels in this country now and I blame the BBC for that as we don't see test matches or hardly anything these days.

So value for money> I would say £2.5m per medal is too much in todays economic climate, and when I see the athletics medals costing 3 times that I'm perplexed, and swimming even worse. The amount of cash thrown over to very minority sports is ridiculous, and no medals either so what a waste.

The question we all need to ask ourselves though: Are you willing to carry on paying well over £150m so that we win a few medals every 4-years. If the answer is yes then so be it. But if the answer is no then you will have to accept that you'll probably feel deflated as the Australians are doing right now. They slashed funding and used it to increase productivity in their economy and are suffering in the games. Surley a balance has to be had, and maybe the people should have been asked in the first place.

Whatever money is handed out to sport, then it needs managing and targeting to ensure best results. Not done as it is now with no joined up thinking or coordination, management or responsibilities. this is why I come back to cycling and rowing which produce fantastic results and best practice.

Doc, I am not way off the mark at all. We are talking about athletics in the context of the Olympics. Its the biggest sport by a mile, the one where people tend to actually remember who won the medals.
To be honest Im staggered you are talking about this at all. We are having a massively, wonderfuly successful games with most sports, including athletics, chipping in. Athletes past and journalists are calling Sunday the greatest night in the hiistory of British athletics for gods sake.
Ffs what ist here to moan about. You must be the only person in the country right now working out how much a medal costs rather than enjoying watching people win them.

Diggers do you ever read anything without putting your own slant on it. I said every 4-years we go athletics mad. You said its a massive sport, which I disagree with except every 4 years for 2-weeks. Where have I said anything about this not being an exceptional Olympics ffs.

I've tried to open it into a wider subject about getting more bang for your buck and improving our medal hopes. So please dont talk shite about athletics being bigger than football, because thats what you implied

For christ sake, obviously its only every 4 years but the Olympics are every 4 years and we are talking about the value of Olympics medals are we not ? Im not implying that athletics is bigger than football at all, where did I say that...look where I say in the context of the Olympics. Im stating a fact that athletics is the biggest profile sport in the olympics...more so than say football as an example. You seem to want to ignore that in your synopsis of what is value for money.
So to rewind back to my initial point......IMO there is very good value in spending more money per medal on athletics.
Anyway Im going to leave it at that, we arent going to agree and I dont want an argument about it. Id rather watch Queen Victoria win another gold hopefully.

Very disappointed in the incosistency shown by the IOC

8 Badminton players disqualified for not trying - surely the whole Australian team should have been sent home

Chris Hoy was superb today, and you could see how much it meant to him when he was on the podium.



On the subject of funding, Steve went to Loughborough recently to do some biomechanics stuff, while he was there the staff showed him the sort of info they produce for the top athletes, he said it was amazing, but apparently the equipment was very expensive.

I presume that after the Games are over, there will be an evaluation of how the funding has been used for each sport, and the results which have been obtained?

Doc is already on the case Mary!

That cycling team is just amazing, I take my hat off to them all, and especially Dave Brailsford who has transformed the sport. After Bejing the IOC decided to change the rules so that one country wouldn't dominate, but the boys and girls have even beaten the Bejing tally, wow.!!
12 medals from 13 events (Including road) phenominal performance.

Sir Chris Hoy and 'Queen' Victoria Pendleton both take a final bow from the Olympics. Fantastic servants to their country and sport, well done

They are a brilliant team. Interesting to note that a lot of the succes has been put down to the building of the Manchester velodrome for the Commonwealth Games. It gave British cycling a home and helped create the legacy of the sport. Lets hope that we have a similar effect from these games on other sports.
Great to see another medal in the athletics yesterday, for me it was even better to see Andrew Osagie make the final so we get a Brit to cheer when we go on Thursday. Outside medal chance, if he can run around his PB of 1.44.5 he will be there or therabouts for a shot at the bronze. Brilliant long jump qualification from Shana Proctor as well, again a PB of around 6.90 will see her in with a shot of a medal of any colour really.

Diggers I watched an interesting interview with Hoy, who said that the re-engineering of the cycling team started in 97. He mentioned someone I should know, but can't place, as it was his vision that started it. Brailsford was then drafted in and the whole thing started to hang together. The manchester velodrome made things simpler for team GB, as it gave them a place to train together, so long as everyone bought into it and relocated. They were able to work on and with each cyclist to ensure they all had their bespoke training programme, nutrition requirement, rest/recovery requirement, phsycological work out, wind tunnel work ....... Made it simpler for all as they became lab rats. Good article about Brailsford on the beeb site too. The Manchester velodrome is team GB's early mornings and some evenings, and think it gets used by the public/clubs for the rest of the time. lets hope the new one gets used too.

A question: Sky's cash which was used to form Sky Pro Cycling with Brailsford as team principle. Would he have used some of the technology he developed for Sky, into team GB's??? Or has it has been mentioned by Boardman, the bikes have been on general sale for 3-years and are no different to the bikes used now in London. I bet theres been some cross fertilisation or Sky have got a great deal as they bought team GB technology to benefit Sky Pro???

That would be Peter King I think Doc, apparently he ist he visionary behindt he whole story though Brailsford has been involved all teh way along as well and most take a huige amount of credit. I also think Chris Broadman deserves mention, he was the high profile name the sport needed and also had a great approach to how technology could help breed success.
You may well be right re the Sky theory, would be hard for Brailsford not to wear the same hat for both jobs Id imagine a lot of the time.
British record for Sophie Hitchon a GB record in the hammer, another kid with a massive future, think she is the age group world record holder, fingers crossed she makes the final as was a gutsy effort on the last throw.

Well done to the cycling team - they have been awesome but what about the dressage team???? We have never won a medal in this very technical and demanding discipline (believe me, if you have never ridden a horse) and yet we have come away with the team gold and have 3 riders in with a chance of individual gold as well. This sport used to be dominated by the Germans and now we have pushed them into 2nd place. Last night's news was all about the cycling and triathlon and then, as an afterthought, said "oh and we won a gold in dressage as well". They showed the final rider walking her horse out of the arena having completed her test and didn't even show her or any of the others in action which is an amazing sight. I am disgusted that this fantastic effort has been dismissed in such an off-hand way.

Did someone just lean on the keyboard?

Spoiler:

Davie wrote:Did someone just lean on the keyboard?

Spoiler:

LP Mrs Doc mentioned something similar last night because the silver on the sailboarding wasn't touched upon either. When I think back a few years to the medal table and the lowly position we occupied, we were shouting from the rooftops when we won a bronze. I think we have gotten used to winning golds and 'minor medals' are starting to be seen as failure in some respects. I know thats not the case, but it sure seems that way. The hosey people have done brilliant by the way and gold is gold, whichever part of the team it came from.

Diggers enjoy your day down in the park tomoz

Do the horses get medals as well ?

diggers wrote:Do the horses get medals as well ?

From what I heard in my car yesterday you would have thought so. Apparently the horses were lined up behind the team who were on the podium, and according to the radio lady the horses were good as gold

It all got too confusing then as she went on to say that we had a beaten the Germans who were always the best. We had a rider with a german name and the Germans had a British horse .... I was lost then

A sour note today was that the new gold post box in Sheffield in honour of Jess ennis has been vandalised and defaced. What sort of sicko would want to do that!! Pleased to say the PO have sorted the box out again, but sometimes there are times when I lived anywhere else. If this dick lived in the town why shouldn't he feel proud of someone who has done something special for her town and country.

Doc - Laura Becholtsheimer (I think that's how you spell it) was born in Germany but has lived in England for years (a bit many of the other British athletes who were not born here) so she competed for Team GB. Horses are traded around the world and so there is no such thing really as a home-bred horse (probably apart from Ben Maher's horse) for any country.

Pity we had fences down in the show jumping individual but there was a lot of pressure on there. Team golf is still a fantastic achievement.

Im pleased they did well for our medal count l but I dont like horses or horsey things, horse racing is probably the dullest sport in the world for me. Im scarred by my mum making us watch Horse of the Year show all the time as a kid probably, though I did quite like it when they just had to jump one huge wall.

It was always a bit of treat to be allowed up late to watch Horse of the Year Show! From that era I mainly remember Harvey Smith and the V-sign.

LP - just to add insult to injury, apparently the Daily Express managed to publish a photo of the Dutch dressage team by mistake.

An interesting fact published today regarding the Olympics:-

Team USA came by private jet.
Team Japan flew business class.
Team France travelled by Eurostar.
As for teams Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Nigeria, Ghana, Sierra Leone, Kosovo and Albania...they simply used their Oyster cards.

Wow, what a night. In fact what a glorious day at the Olympics. If anything was too hot, probably my only gripes about the park where there is very little shade, apart from that it was great and we sat and watched the boxing on the live screen area which had a brilliant atmosphere.
The experience inside the stadium was beyond expectations, we had amazing seats, right next to the torch, you can catually feel the heat from it. Felt like we had witnessed history with Bolts double double gold feat but even more so with Rudishas run. The greatest 800 of all time Id have to say, when 1.47.3 gets you last you know its seriously quick. That time would have won gold at the last 3 games.
A truly great day, transport a total breeze, the staff at the games fantastic. My only problem with these Olympics is how much Im going to miss them when they finish!

Must've been a wonderful night Digs ... maybe second only to last Saturday (from a Brit POV, but even better from a world view)

Glad you enjoyed it

Cheers Davie, would have been lovely to see some Brit success but the reception Osagie and the 800 girl got was amazing, was fun cheering them. But it was that sense that you were just cheering amazing sport rather than nationality that made it really special. I actually think that even as a cynical 45 year old grump this Olympics has actually taught me a few things about what to appreciate.
Sure they cost a fortune but the world needs these kinds of events to keep its chin up in dire times, it needs heroes like Bolt and Rudisha.
Now we just need the weather to hold and no terrorist activity for a few days and IMO London will have pulled off a games to rank with the best of them.

Wow - that was an amazing night to be part of Digs. It's good to hear that after all the doubters (myself included), we seem to have got it right, and made a damn good job of hosting.

I hope that the "feel good" factor is not too short lived, and that there will truely be a sporting legacy for all the youngsters of GB to be able to improve their lives by involvement in some form of activity.

Mo Farrah. Legend

Great to see that clip of the Press area on their feet as Mo approached the finish.

What a guy!

Not so sure of the clip of the BBC studio though Mary. Denise Lewis, Colin Jackson and Michael Johnson all up on their feet cheering and applauding but John Inverdoodle more interested in Denise Lewis's ass

LOL - I wondered why he always remained seated!

Now it's Tom Time.

Well from being a sceptic about the whole affair, and someone who thought we shouldn't have the Olympics, and knew we couldn't afford it etc. I am pleased to say that we have done a fantastic job and the organisors should be proud. Yes it has been a showcase of Geat Britain and we did ourselves proud, and Rio will find it hard to top in 4-years time.

Special thanks should go to our security services, because this was the biggest target on earth, and no doubt there will have been some threats, that have been thwarted. Special thanks to all those people who gave up their own time to assist fans, for no money, they made a huge impact. For those athletes who did a PB, or SB well done. Some amazing records broken, some fantastic spectacles and fetes of skill. A never to be repeated GB medal haul, and now it only needs capping off with the much hyped legacy, which needs delivering.

It cost a fortune to build and put together, but will be interesting to see how much funding is cut going forward. Australia have suffered from lack of funding and had a torrid time in London. I expect to see us go backwards for Rio. But being realistic does anyone think that a small island race can win another 65 medals?

Hear, hear Doc! I too was sceptical but I think it was a great occasion and the security forces, in particular, did us proud - I experienced their efficiency, intelligence and, above all, good humour at first hand at Greenwich Park and I am sure they were far better than any one from G4S would have been. And well done to most of the Ambassadors who were also helpful and good-humoured.

But thank goodness it's all over

Doc wrote:Well from being a sceptic about the whole affair, and someone who thought we shouldn't have the Olympics, and knew we couldn't afford it etc. I am pleased to say that we have done a fantastic job and the organisors should be proud. Yes it has been a showcase of Geat Britain and we did ourselves proud, and Rio will find it hard to top in 4-years time.

Special thanks should go to our security services, because this was the biggest target on earth, and no doubt there will have been some threats, that have been thwarted. Special thanks to all those people who gave up their own time to assist fans, for no money, they made a huge impact. For those athletes who did a PB, or SB well done. Some amazing records broken, some fantastic spectacles and fetes of skill. A never to be repeated GB medal haul, and now it only needs capping off with the much hyped legacy, which needs delivering.

It cost a fortune to build and put together, but will be interesting to see how much funding is cut going forward. Australia have suffered from lack of funding and had a torrid time in London. I expect to see us go backwards for Rio. But being realistic does anyone think that a small island race can win another 65 medals?

What's with the thank you speech? Are you actually Seb Coe? Don't think you've got much of an audience here.