Girls V Boys V Tee it forward

I love a good debate so thought that a decent one should revolve around the differences between the mens and ladies pro' game. Even though I play golf with Mrs Doc quite regularly and using the usual handicap formula, the outcome should be a level playing field. In fact its the opposite as i need to have a poor game or at least a few very bad holes for Mrs Doc to beat me. She has beaten me and will beat me in the future no doubt, but the ladies handicap formula doesn't really make it a fair game. I don't hit the ball a mile, but am way ahead of her and even though she plays from the front tee boxes it makes little difference on many holes on the average course.

So are the best lady players able to compare with the best male players, on the same course using the same handicap method but using front tee for ladies and back box for the man.????

http://www.golfwithwomen.com/?p=242

Another way of looking at things and open to debate.

http://www.pga.com/pga-america/pga-feature/pga-and-usga-step-new-sets-tees-in-nationwide-tee-it-forward-initiative

No.

Doc, I had a look at your article and I think we have discussed this type of thing in the past in course ratings and slope ratings on the international handicapping thread.

Are you trying to find a way to level out the playing field with you and Mrs Doc because a straight forward handicap allowance doesn't work?

What are the par and SSS for the tee boxes? If the reds are higher than the whites or yellows why don't you add that differential onto Mrs Doc's handicap? This is similar to what happens in the US when players play against each other using different tee boxes.

Grumps I'm not arguing one way or the other really, was just trying to get some form of debate going about handicaps and the huge differentials between ladies and gents skill levels. There are some brilliant lady golfers as we know, but if it was a level playing field, would a lady 18 handicapper compete with a male 18 handicapper. By level playing field I was talking about the American 'tee it forward' concept whereby a players average driving distance x 30 is the yardage that player should play from the tees. It does seem a bit crazy that many lady players cannot reach some greens in regulation. You could argue that those ladies who can't reach many in regulation, yet have a decent handicap, are actually more skillful.

Doc wrote:
It does seem a bit crazy that many lady players cannot reach some greens in regulation.

But many male players cannot reach some greens in regulation. At least 5 greens on my course are out of reach for an average 20 handicapper.

Forward tees only solves half the problem. It enables all players to hit their tee shots into the landing area on a fairway. But it doesn't help with approaches.

Isn't this the point of the CONGU "equalization shots"? (what used to be called "courtesy shots" in a less PC era)

When ladies play other ladies it doesn't matter - they are all off the same tees and it's a level playing field.

When men play ladies in any sort of competition the equalization shots come into play (basically the difference between the mens and ladies SSS values)

Ray is right about GIR too - when talking about handicapped competitions GIR is rarely useful to talk about. At my own course there are 3 holes that I can rarely reach in regulation - but as a 20+ handicapper I get not one but TWO shots on those holes so you can say that GIR is actually 4 shots!

If I can't hit the green in 4 shots on any of those holes it's time to give up. The same applies to the girls; even a 12-15 h/c lady is going to get a shot on any of those longer par 4s and even if it is 450 yards, GIR is still 3 shots (according to their handicap) - 3 shots of 150 yards each shouldn't be beyond any lady who has got to a 15 handicap

Agree with you Davie - this fixation with GIR doesn't help the higher (average) handicap player, whether male or female. If you get a shot a hole (or maybe two), then you should view par 3s as par 4s, par 4s as par 5s and so on. That's what I was told by a 10-handicap lady when I first started playing. It takes the pressure off straight away. Then it is down to a good short game and that's where you pick up your shots.

But I agree with LJ too and the short answer to the OP is simply "No"!

Maybe this tee it forward thing is to encourage newer players rather than level the playing field. Start off closer to the hole and within the next few shots be on the green rather than see it as a long slog to get to the green.

I have a feeling I'm going to sound like Mac here, too much emphasis is placed on par for beginners and it can be demoralising. I think it maybe a good idea to be able to recalculate the par based off your handicap so a 20+ handicapper is playing against a par 90 and above. These changes should be applied to a scorecard so for example they don't see a 200 yard par 3 they see a 200 yard par 5.

Another thing this play it forward system encourages or brings into play is some of the original course design (back to being Mac again). Risk and reward and challenge will come back into play for the shorter hitter as those features are back in range again.

By limiting yourself to a 'personal par' you are setting up for failure before you being. It's a reason I hate stableford and any adjusted event. Par is what it is. Telling yourself it's something different gives you a feeling that you can compete without any drive to improve or play above your current ability.

You can tell yourself you're playing well as an 18 handicapper when you shoot 90 but the fact is that you are never going to get any better with that attitude and I have nothing but contempt for that sort of mediocrity in any walk of life.

And the answer on ladies and men in the same event is still "no" by the way.

I agree but the debate is moving on. This was aimed at the beginning golfer to avoid demoralizing them and encourage their enjoyment. If they keep trying to improve against their personal par then that is not setting up for failure.

The vast majority of golf is handicap based and that's something that gets lauded about golf. The chopper can play against a scratch and still compete. Like it or not it's here to stay.

GG. I have no issues with handicap or using it as a leveller in the game. What I have a problem with is being lazy and saying this is a par 6 when it's not.

Using a shot in your mind before you tee off on any hole is a certain way to fail before you've even hit the ball.

LJ - I hear and understand what you are daying but I personally treat it in a slightly different way

At my age and stage of my golfing life I know I have no chance of ever getting down to low single figures but that doesn't stop me from wanting to improve

However, when I talk about aiming for GIR in regulation according to my handicap I don't see any difference there to how a scratch player would see it.

A scratch player will look to hit the green of a par4 in 2 shots, but also strive to be close enough that he can birdie it. I look at it the same, just with my shot applied. Unless it is a shorter hole I'd aim to be hitting the green in 3 but close enough to let me get my net birdie. Do this often enough and the handicap will drop until I no longer get my shot there - at which point I then have to play for "real" GIR

It's not a case of laziness, just a mental trick

Not overly sure where I stand on the tee it forward idea. The equalisation method from Congu is not perfect but then what method would be considering your playing different length course and in many cases different par! This week trying get my head around the usga slope system!!

One thing I do remember on a tee it forward type format is when doing county coaching weekend as a junior in the summer hols, they'd make us play 3 formats over a weekend.

Friday : far forward tees (usually ladies blues or reds) and stioulated driver off every par4 and 5. The idea was to get used to hitting short irons in and learning what it felt like to have plenty of birdie chances and how to try and over power the course.

Saturday: back tees/plates (medal or championship tees) and we weren't allowed a wood in the bag. The idea was if we could reach a hole in 2 we were doing so with long irons so had to learn how get soft landing shots and how ball reacted from distance + if we couldn't reach it was to develop pitching and short game, and to teach you that length isn't always best option.

Sunday medal: again back tees, but free reign on club selection in order to put the 2 days previous learning to use, you'd have been surprised how many kids would then opt for a 3iron off the tee at a long par 4 or short 5, as they'd learnt that gave best position

Saturday and Sundays lessons almost contradict each other but in there own way were very valid and helped develop all around long game. The coach that did this was a sadistic git but said something he'd picked up in the states while on scholarship and something he brought to us. Something I'd advocate to anyone looking to improve as it opens your eyes to other ways of playing the same course.

Went off on a tangent there so back to the OP! There is no answer to the riddle on ways to try and find a common ground