Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Apparently Graham Poll (ex referee) was on 5 Live this morning talking about the two incidents at the weekend involving Lampard and Barton and commenting that "you look at Barton and Lampard,and you start to wonder if previous form comes into the mind of the ref"

Is this necessarily a bad thing?

For those that didn't see the incident, Lampard went in with a very late tackle, studs up, and caught his opponent nastily on the ankle. Lampard got only a yellow card and said himself that he was very lucky not to get a straight red. I don't believe there was malice in the tackle but it was certainly late, reckless and a potential leg breaker

Joey Barton was sent off for "headbutting" an opponent. Clips I've seen don't show a definite head butt, but it does show Barton going nose to nose with his opponent who made the most of it and fell backwards.

I'd say Barton's red was warranted, regardless of his previous reputation; Lampard certainly should have had a red in my mind, but I wonder if he got away with it because he's not a repeat offender with tackles like that.

Should people with previously good reputations be given the benefit in situations like this? I think not, but I can easily see how it might happen

Having switched off the TV after yesterday's failed rearguard action I haven't watched any of yesterday's action. I know it makes me a little fickle but my missus sulks big time when we lose. The good news is we have hardly anyone who can bring up what happened.

Barton has been sent off a few times and has a reputation that most likely proceeds him. Could this be karma for what happened on the opening day against Arsenal and in particular Gervinho? From the sound of it both were similar incidents, maybe Barton can feel a bit hard done by but I'm sure he will get little sympathy. Didn't he tweet that the ref said he didnt see it when Barton spoke to him at half time?

With Fat Frankie Lampard I think his golden boy reputation has helped him. If what you say about the tackle is true Davie then I think he is a lucky boy and Wolves will feel very hard done by. They had Miljas sent off for what sounds like a similar tackle. I can see why he did get a red in that instance, trailing leg came swinging around and took Arteta around mid shin. There was no way he could have stopped and ref probably thought he was endangering the safety of an opponent. The lack of consistency drives players, managers and fans mad. In Fat Frankie's case he got the benefit of the doubt and was able to score a decisive goal.

I agree with you on this Davie

The Lampard tackle was dangerous and should probably have been a red card. The Barton one less so and if it is correct that he was sent off then Bradley Johnson really should have also been sent off as i can't really see the difference in their actions.

But, absolutely if you are a 'repeat offender' then that's going to come into play. Should it? Maybe not if refs were robots. Can they complain? No chance

It makes me laugh listening to Arsene Wenger moan that Arsenal don't get penalties. Sorry matey, that's what happens when guys like Pires, Henry, Reyes, Van Persie and Co have spent years diving. Tough luck!

It used to happen with Ronaldo. SAF would moan that he doesn't get protection. Err, that's because half the time he's cheating. When the ref gets it wrong and gives a penalty for one of his dives that's no problem. When he gets it wrong and doesn't for a real foul then that's awful.

You either try and con the ref so he makes mistakes or you don't. You can't have it all ways

Rant over

MPB, I think Zamora went down even easier than Gervinho did but thems are the breaks, sometimes you're the statue and sometimes the pigeon. Second half performance left a lot to be desired and Walcott in particular was terrible.

Lampard should have walked no doubt about it. But it was out of charachter and if that worked in his favour then not sure that a bad thing at all.
Eight premier league goals for the fat boy already this season, amazing really for a midfielder. Was looking at his stats and he eighth in the all time list of PL goalscorers and second in the all time list of assists.

Partly because he shoots so often Diggers, not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean his shots to goal ratio isn't very good.

Hate his goal celebration.

I don't think reputation should come into it, every incident should be viewed on it's own merits.

Although in Barton's case, he should be sent off at every available opportunity

I've never been sure on Lampard. He's an interesting one. No doubt his stats speak for themselves and are outstanding. As Super says he does shoot a LOT and he does take all the penalties which are probably between 5 and 10 goals a season on their own. Can't complain about his goalscoring record though. I'm just not sure he gives 'much' else. For 'much' read 'anything'

Personally I think the whole rent a shot thing is a bit of a fallacy. If managers thought that they could get 15-20 goals a season from a midfielder by telling them to shoot on site then they would be doing it all the time.
Like most attacking midfielder the vast majority of his goals come from late runs into the penalty box, not from 25 yard screamers.
True re penalties, though you could take off a lot of goals from Alan Shearer on count. And penalties still have to be scored.
If he doesnt give anything else how does he manage to be second in the all time list of assists ? He clearly does give something else even if its a very good dead ball delivery from a corner.

I'd be willing to bet a great many of those assists are rebounded and deflected shots Digs. I watch a lot of football and i honestly don't see him picking many through balls out. I also don't rate him as a particularly good dead ball taker.

I don't think all managers would be telling their attacking midfielders to be shooting on sight. Yes it will probably get them 10 more goals a year out of the midfielder but likely at the expense of 20 goals less from each of your forwards.

A lot of Lampard's goals are indeed late runs, and he's very good at that, but a lot are also from 18-20 yards . Not screamers but he is very willing to shoot at any opportunity.

I've no problems with penalties counting. I just made the point as, whilst they count, they can't really be used to illustrate what a good goalscorer he is.

Just my view, but i'd take a Scholes or Gerrard who might get 5 goals a year less but give you a lot more in general play and defending.

Can't stand Gerrard, he falls into the Ashley Cole, John Terry bracket for me of thick, classless scumbag footballers, not to mention his hairline starting about a nanometre above his eyebrows.

Gerrard, Scholes and Lampard are all top players and have different strengths and weaknesses. I think Lampard gets too much stick personally, you dont play in the engine room of a successful side without having a good all round game.
Take a look at this if you dont believe me. Some of touches and passes are fantastic, the kind of thing everyone has an orgasm about of its done by Gerrard but everyone seems to think Lampard never does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjOWgvtrTjk

I can't look at that clip in the office but will have a look this evening.

I'm not giving Lampard stick. He's certainly a decent player. I just think there are quite a few i would choose ahead of him. I don't think he has a great all round game. Good, maybe, but not as good as the reputation he carries (or carried).

I will be interested to see, when Drogba leaves, if any other forwards at Chelsea manage to get any goals with Lampard in the team. My guess would be no and i get the feeling Villas Boas guess is also no as he's clearly trying to phase him out

I odnt reall ysee how you could watch the clip and say there isnt more to his game than goal scoring but we shall see.
Drogba has been a wonderful player and certainly would have helped out any side. Re phasing out Lampard, well he is 33 now, sooner or later his gifts will wain big time, in many ways its amazing they arent gone now. Cant think of many midfielders who get goals after the age of 30. Even other prolific ones such as Scholes, Keane and Gerrard have dropped off dramatically.
Im sure Villas Boss realises this, I dont think he would be phasing him out if Lampard was 5 years younger.

Mcmanaman ,le tissier, ince, Giggs all scored plenty goals after 30. Not sure Lampard and gerrard are that unique in that respect.

No they didnt SR, not at any decent rate. Le Tiss maybe but Id always classify him as a forward rather than a midfielder.
I dont think Giggs has ever really been particularly prolific considering he is an out and out forward again for the vast majority of his career. Ince the same in comparison to Gerrard and certainly Lampard. Macmanaman scored 50 goals in his whole club career, pretty much all for Liverpool.
Lampard gets 15-20 a season, no midfielder has come close to that over an extended period of time.

I'm not sure Digs
Drogba has been exceptional for Chelsea and perfect for Lampard. All thanks to Mourinho. It genuinely would have been interesting to see how it would have worked with say a Torres all these years. I have no doubt Lampard would have scored as many goals (he's scored plenty for England) but it would be interesting to see if a forward less able than Drogba to fend for himself would have scored any goals. I think they'd struggle with a centre mid like Lampard.

Villas Boas might be phasing him out because of his age. Or he might be doing it as he knows Drogba is off and Torres cannot score with Lampard behind him. Depends how astute he is

Im not sure Torres would score right now with the Barca midfield behind him. The goals had dried up at Liverpool, I think he has really just lost all confidence. Anelka has got goals at Chelsea with Lampard in the side and I wouldnt say he was unlike Torres in style.
But for me Drogba was one of the very best in the world for quite a few years, still is on his day. Not too many strikers will get you 25 plus goals a season whoever they play with.

True re Anelka / Torres

I really have no facts to back up my view on Lampard - it's just my feeling

One thing i will say, he does seem like a decent bloke.
But then, so did Ryan Giggs!

I just had a quick look at Lampard's goalscoring record and the stats are interesting if you compare with and without Drogba

At West Ham, 6 seasons, 147 league games, 24 goals = a goal every 6.1 games
At Chelsea pre Drogba, 3 seasons, 113 league games, 21 goals = a goal every 5.4 games
At Chelsea with Drogba, 8 seasons, 249 league games, 102 goals = a goal every 2.4 games

Looks like playing off Drogba has certainly helped Lampard. I wonder if United or Liverpool had had a forward of Drogba's style if Gerrard or Scholes would have scored more goals than Lampard?

There is probably some truth in that. But I think you are missing an important point, the whole Chelsea side during the period when Drogba has been there has been better. It improved to a Championship winning side spending money on whoever they wanted. So I think you would find that Lampard was going to record the best stats of his career anyway as he was playing in the best sides he had played in under arguably the best managers.
But it takes two to make a partnership work anyway, no guarantee that it would have gelled with Scholes or Gerrard.

No guarantee no, and i'm not bringing up to prove anything, just thought it interesting

No they are good stats. I guess we would need to know if the midfield at Marseille was banging in the goals when he was there. No doubt they brought out the best in each other though.
Just checked and Lampard has scored 242 goals in his career, that is amazing really. Even comparing him to the great English attacking midfelders like Hoddle and Robson he is well clear, Robson ahas about 140 and Hoddle 110. Not saying he is in there league as an all round player mind you, Robson especially was a god of a player for me, but purely in terms of goal scoring I dont think there can be a midfielder close to him in the English game.

242 goals is amazing, no doubt about that
The only player i can think of who can match that - and actually pretty much played in the exact same position and a very similar style - is Bobby Charlton. He had 270 odd goals.

But that was a long time ago!

In fact Digs, i think you've counted Lampard's England goals in there so that would make Charlton's tally around 320. Impressive.

Not English granted but British - John Wark bagged 230 goals from 640 games. That's some 200 games less than Lampard got his 242 goals.

I say John Ward takes the goalscoring midfielder crown

Lampard has scored a lot of goals for a man playing in his position, but then he's played a lot of games (820) which means a goal every 3.47 games.

Matt Le Tissier, who also played attacking midfield played 548 games in his career and scored 210 goals. A goal every 2.6 games.

He has been a very good player, no doubt about that, but I don't believe he's been the best since Charlton.

There is no way for me Le Tiss and Lampard play the same role. Le Tiss was really far more of a second striker in the Cantona mould. You would very rarely find him tracking back, tackling, doing the hard yards. Lampard does that work.
Good call on Wark though again I'd day he was a more advanced player than Lampard.
Charlton was too early for me bit was clearly special. Though the older guys I have spoken to called him a great goal scorer rather than a great player so maybe he had a touch of the Lamps himself ?
Did you watch the link MPB ?

I only really remember Wark from his second spell at Ipswich but i think he was actually a less attacking player than Lampard. He played a lot of games at centre back.

I'd agree that Le Tiss was definitely a forward, albeit a withdrawn one. And i'd agree from what i've seen of Charlton his style seems very similar to Lampards. He certainly wasn't afraid to shoot either!

I did watch the link. Certianly some impressive stuff in there. You've got to take it with a pinch of salt as it's clearly a 'best bits' compilation and even i could make myself look like Pele by putting one of them together. But there are some quality little passes in there for sure, and some i don't remember. There's no doubt Lampard's a good player and as i said before, a decent bloke too it seems

I loved that first Ipswich side. Did Wark really play centre back later on, always looked quite small , but just shows good players can play anywhere.
We had Eric Gates at Sunderland for a few years after his Ipswich days, another good player.

That was a really good Ipswich side. Think many of them starred in Escape to Victory too, wasn't Alan Brazil one of the Germans?

Looking at some of Le Tissiers goals and where he got invovled in some of the moves it looks like he certainly was more of a midfielder (albeit an attacking one) than a striker.

Some of the best goals of EPL history.

Not just later on. He played there a fair bit for Liverpool. I think the fact that he was as hard as nails helped!

I've lifted this, admittedly from Wiki -

"Wark played as a central defender, midfielder and, occasionally, as a striker. Wark was an unusual player; he was able to play as a defensive midfielder yet break forward to score. According to former team-mate Terry Butcher, this was because his colleagues would drop back to cover for him: "I played with John Wark, who was a sitting midfielder but was one of the top scorers in England and Europe. If you see it, then do it, as long as the others spot it and cover for you."
He has been described as "a defensive midfielder with an astonishing goalscoring record"

I only remember his second spell at Ipswich but he was still a very good player then. Oddly he only played 29 times for Scotland. I know through the late 70s and the 80s they were probably as strong as they've been but you'd think Wark might have got a few more games?

More than Gascoigne, Le Tissier for me sums up the guy who has all the talent in the world but really just quite fancies an easy time. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.
So much ability but obviously was comfortable at Southampton and couldn't quite be bothered to try too hard to get in the England side. Shame really

My favourite English player of all time (even though he was a fat git, although it was a time when real professionalism was just emerging). More talented than perhaps any other in the last 30 or so years, perhaps even Hoddle, just a shame he didn't work harder.

I think he would have been nailed on for England if it hadn't been for Hoddle. It was almost as if he couldn't bear to have someone who had his talent get any limelight, while Gascoigne was the media darling of the time.

Le Tiss certainly scored some great goals and I did watch a few games when he totally ran the show, but also watched many where he was non existent.
Gazza was very special, a complete playmaker. Unfortunately flawed both physically and mentally.

Loads of players have many games where they are non existent, the current England squad is proof of that.

England have certainly been blessed with good midfielders, although I don't think any of them have ever lived up to their potential.

Not for England that's for sure. Plenty have at club level.

I think Le Tiss wanted to walk straight into the England side and couldn't accept that it doesn't work like that. He couldn't be bothered to do the work to get there. Even he has admitted that.
Bear in mind at the time we were flush for forwards. Shearer, Sheringham, Wright, Fowler, Ferdinand, Collymore, Sutton, young Owen - Le Tiss had a bit to do and just couldn't be bothered.

Don't forget Hoddle ended Gascoigne's England career so i'm not sure he was overly keen on him, even though the media were.

To be fair, it would be very hard to fit both Gascoigne and Le Tiss into any side

Hoddle was a top manager for England. If it weren't for those ridiculous faith healing comments i wonder if we might have won something under him

Agreed MPB, statistically I think it's true to say he's been as good a manager as England have had since Robson.

Not just statistically , we actually played some nice possession football.

The so-called 'Golden Age' has been a joke, and Lampard has been a big part of that England garbage. Too many past managers persisted with trying to squeeze Gerrard and Lampard into the same team, which left us vunerable elsewhere. Lampard has scored for fun for his club, and is usually top of the midfield points statistics each season. He can only do that because he has a solid midfield and defence behind him though, and Chelski are looking vulnerable defensivley this season, and thats why AVB doesn't fancy him as much. Terry is slow at the best of times, but his glory days are now behind him as well.

Gerrard & Lampard should do what Scholes did, and retire from International football and open up the slots to potential world beaters like young Jones, Young et al. They had their chance and squandered every opportunity and the world cup made us a laughing stock. Beckham was the only one of this lot, who tried for his country and produced each game. Theres always a place for brilliance, but unfortunatley for England when one comes along, there seems to be another already in the side. Le Tiss was awesome, but Hoddle, Waddle etc were always around. before that we had Tony Currie who struggled to get in, then Gascoign got his chance under Robson .... Can't wait to get a new England manager so that our kids who have progressed well recently can be given the opportunity to shine like young Sturridge etc.

Lampard's race is run I'm afraid

Doc wrote:Gerrard & Lampard should do what Scholes did, and retire from International football and open up the slots to potential world beaters like young Jones, Young et al.
Lampard's race is run I'm afraid

Surely it's up to the England manager, and not Gerrard and Lampard, to decide when and how to bring in the new crop of players? I would expect that, like Beckham, these guys should want to play for their country as long as they can.

I'm not a fan of the idea of retiring from international football, especially the Andy Cole style retirement when the manager has effectively done it for you already.

I thought England was progressing nicely under Hoddle. He had the team playing good stuff, had a clear home / away strategy and was able to set us up to play in a number of different styles.

Real shame about what happened, although credit to Ray Parlour for his "short back and sides" comment when Eileen layed her hands on him!

raycastleunited wrote:I thought England was progressing nicely under Hoddle. He had the team playing good stuff, had a clear home / away strategy and was able to set us up to play in a number of different styles.

Real shame about what happened, although credit to Ray Parlour for his "short back and sides" comment when Eileen layed her hands on him!

For me the best 3-managers we've had for years are Robson, El Tel and Hoddle. (All 3 sacrificed by the FA because of media) Hoddle could have done a great job and would have kept us away from Sven, Mac and Fab et al. Our press need to carry the can for many of the England faults/performances over the year and by getting rid of Hoddle because of bad press is almost treason. Yes Hoddle may well have failed later, but he should have been allowed to get on with it to let us see how he developed. Wasted years and wasted talent I'm afraid as we've seen quality players over the years being played out of position, because they're big names ....

That's always been England's problem, pandering to the individual rather than getting a collection of players to play as a team.

The problems are over now , 2012 is England's time. And I'll get down to search as well......

I think everyone would agree wth you there Doc: Robson, El Tel and Hoddle.

However, I don't think Sven did too badly. We were struggling to qualify for the World Cup when he came in and turned things around. We were always a quarter final team under Sven, and I feel he was let down by his players at key moments in tournaments.

Agree with Ray

You could argue that we should have done better than the quarters in one or two of the tournaments during his time in charge, but that was owing to players as much as anything. Can anyone think of any major decisions that they would have done differently to Sven? I can't

Sven has probably had the spawniest career of any football manager ever.
Not particularly gifted or talented, never really achieved a great deal but had a great skill for getting the position with the most money without ever having to deliver.
That is his greatest achievement.

He does seem to bag a lot of the big money jobs!

I think the prize for earning a LOT of money from doing VERY little surely has to go to.................

Shaun Wright-Phillips !!

Just to bring this back to Joey B for the moment, I see his appeal against the red card has been rejected