Golf-Chat
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

+6
drive4show
super_realist
diggers
MustPuttBetter
1GrumpyGolfer
Davie
10 posters

Page 3 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3

Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by Davie Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

Apparently Graham Poll (ex referee) was on 5 Live this morning talking about the two incidents at the weekend involving Lampard and Barton and commenting that "you look at Barton and Lampard,and you start to wonder if previous form comes into the mind of the ref"

Is this necessarily a bad thing?

For those that didn't see the incident, Lampard went in with a very late tackle, studs up, and caught his opponent nastily on the ankle. Lampard got only a yellow card and said himself that he was very lucky not to get a straight red. I don't believe there was malice in the tackle but it was certainly late, reckless and a potential leg breaker

Joey Barton was sent off for "headbutting" an opponent. Clips I've seen don't show a definite head butt, but it does show Barton going nose to nose with his opponent who made the most of it and fell backwards.

I'd say Barton's red was warranted, regardless of his previous reputation; Lampard certainly should have had a red in my mind, but I wonder if he got away with it because he's not a repeat offender with tackles like that.

Should people with previously good reputations be given the benefit in situations like this? I think not, but I can easily see how it might happen
Davie
Davie
Admin

Posts : 2170
Join date : 2011-12-09
Age : 63
Location : Thames Valley

https://golf-chat.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down


Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by raycastleunited Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:48 am

Redrage wrote:

He did play at the highest level though, for me you can't dispute that he did. He earned 59 caps, played at a World Cup and European Championship, played for a competitive Serie A side, won an FA cup with Spurs, he played Champions League football and won 4 trophies including 2 league titles with Rangers in 2 seasons. His overall success (in terms of titles won) at that level might not have matched his talent for some people and I can follow that logic, but would argue that he had no divine right to win medals. But his career was a world apart from Le Tissier who remained a big fish in small pond for his entire career and cannot see a sensible parallel between their respective careers.

Anyway, I have nothing more to add. I have enjoyed our discussion it has given me something to do today as I battle a man flu.

Sorry, but playing for Rangers is long long way from playing at the highest level. Very much big fish small pond
raycastleunited
raycastleunited

Posts : 413
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by Redrage Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:03 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
Redrage wrote:

He did play at the highest level though, for me you can't dispute that he did. He earned 59 caps, played at a World Cup and European Championship, played for a competitive Serie A side, won an FA cup with Spurs, he played Champions League football and won 4 trophies including 2 league titles with Rangers in 2 seasons. His overall success (in terms of titles won) at that level might not have matched his talent for some people and I can follow that logic, but would argue that he had no divine right to win medals. But his career was a world apart from Le Tissier who remained a big fish in small pond for his entire career and cannot see a sensible parallel between their respective careers.

Anyway, I have nothing more to add. I have enjoyed our discussion it has given me something to do today as I battle a man flu.

Sorry, but playing for Rangers is long long way from playing at the highest level. Very much big fish small pond

You must have a very short memory, in that era both sides of Glasgow were spending big and had some great players. Celtic had Di Canio, Van Hooijdonk and Cadete as their strike force. The majority of that Rangers side had been within a whisker of a CL final a couple of seasons before he arrived. In addition, many a good player (Oleg Salenko, Basile Boli and Stephane Guivarch immediately come to mind) failed to deliver in Scotland such are the demands of having to win every week. Charlie Adam couldn't cut it in that environment and Jamie Redknapp would have had his children last year. You can rightly look down your nose at SPL now, but it wasn't so short on quality then.
Redrage
Redrage

Posts : 343
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by super_realist Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:58 pm

Redrage, The SPL has always been second rate, no matter how you try to justify it.

There was a time where it was much better than it is today, but only because The Old Firm hawked themselves up to the eyelids trying to kid themselves that people would be interested in watching it. Gretna did the same, but it wasn't sustainable, which is why The OF are so catastrophically bad now.

Salenko and Guivarch weren't that noteworthy in the SPL, in fact Salenko hardly even played nor did Guivarch, less than 20 times each, and I don't remember Boli being much better or playing that much more.

There are far more examples of players who looked good in the SPL who couldn't hack it in the EPL, Laudrup, Barry Ferguson, Boumsong, Craig Moore. O'Conner, Lovenkrands

I can only really think of Larsson, Duncan Ferguson, Di Canio , Van Bronkhurst and perhaps a couple of others who looked remotely decent down south.

super_realist

Posts : 460
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by raycastleunited Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Redrage,

True, down the years Rangers and Celtic have had the odd player who was quality. There was a time maybe 20 years ago when some of the best British players were in Scotland. However, the decent players have always stood out because of the dross surrounding them. Similarly, a number of distinctly average players have done well at Rangers and Celtic and struggled in other leagues.

I think your own example of Guivarch is perfect... a completely average player who couldn't cut it in England but then did ok in Scotland.

I don't know enought about Salenko so I looked him up in Wikipedia. He had one freak match for Russia where he scored 5 goals, but his international career was limited to 8 caps.... hardly world class.

I admit I have little knowledge of Scottish football currently, but from the stuff I have watched I would estimate the standard to be about the same as League 1 in England. Rangers and Celtic would probably be mid-table in the Championship and the rest would be League 1 / League 2 standard.
raycastleunited
raycastleunited

Posts : 413
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by super_realist Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:10 pm

Ray, as an example of how bad Scottish Football is, apparently there are some players in Div 2 and The Conference where players are paid more than players in the SPL. Even the top players in the SPL aren't on much.

In fact it was reported that Rudi Scacel of Hearts was considering joining Crawley Town because they were going to pay more.

There hasn't been a truly decent player in the SPL who could cut it in the EPL for at least 6 years. No surprise that there won't be any SPL representative in the Champs League any time soon and that the league is ranked 23rd in Europe by UEFA. Could be the worst league in Europe in 3-4 years.

super_realist

Posts : 460
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by MustPuttBetter Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:42 pm

Solenko, if memory serves those 5 goals were in USA 94 (?) and he scored one other goal in a different game to finish joint top scorer with 6 i think?? Or certainly close

Guivarch has a world cup winners medal i'll have you all know!! Innocent

MustPuttBetter

Posts : 529
Join date : 2011-12-13
Age : 44
Location : Woking

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by Redrage Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:05 am

super_realist wrote:Redrage, The SPL has always been second rate, no matter how you try to justify it.

There was a time where it was much better than it is today, but only because The Old Firm hawked themselves up to the eyelids trying to kid themselves that people would be interested in watching it. Gretna did the same, but it wasn't sustainable, which is why The OF are so catastrophically bad now.


Salenko and Guivarch weren't that noteworthy in the SPL, in fact Salenko hardly even played nor did Guivarch, less than 20 times each, and I don't remember Boli being much better or playing that much more.

There are far more examples of players who looked good in the SPL who couldn't hack it in the EPL, Laudrup, Barry Ferguson, Boumsong, Craig Moore. O'Conner, Lovenkrands

I can only really think of Larsson, Duncan Ferguson, Di Canio , Van Bronkhurst and perhaps a couple of others who looked remotely decent down south.

That was the point I was making SR, they came with reputations and couldn't cut it. If the SPL was such a cake walk they should have impressed. They didn't. So what if the OF spent big to make an assault on the CL and dominate the league? How is that any different from Man City or Chelsea? Their spending isn't sustainable either once their sugar daddies leave.

It is a myth that Barry Ferguson didn't cut it in the EPL, Blackburn didn't want to sell him. He was their captain and their fans were unhappy at his departure, he was excellent with Birmingham in his second spell too. You are talking out of your ring there and also with most of those examples. Laudrup and Boumsong, both went on to play for big clubs after the EPL. Laudrup had a fantastic World Cup in 1998 he was a fantastic player whether he gelled at Chelsea or not, look at Torres just now... awful actually but he is still a class player. Boumsong left Newcastle and played for Juventus and then Lyon.

raycastleunited wrote:
Redrage, I think your own example of Guivarch is perfect... a completely average player who couldn't cut it in England but then did ok in Scotland.

He didn't do ok, he was a very disappointing. Likewise Tore Andre Flo, he did ok goals wise but largely disappointing given the fee he commanded.

Ultimately the point I am making is that winning titles isn't easy in any league, Rangers and Celtic must finish 1st in a 2 horse race or their season will be seen as a failure. You need the right mentality to succeed in that environment and that is where Le Tissier was lacking imo. He was happy to play in a side that had little in the way of expectations and look great. That is not the same as playing for a big club in smaller league. Porto are the dominant side in Portugal and the rest of the league (but for Benfica and Sporting Lisbon at times) is quite poor, would you doubt the quality of their players or any of their recent achievements?
Redrage
Redrage

Posts : 343
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by diggers Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:13 am

[quote="Redrage"]
super_realist wrote:
Ultimately the point I am making is that winning titles isn't easy in any league, Rangers and Celtic must finish 1st in a 2 horse race or their season will be seen as a failure. You need the right mentality to succeed in that environment and that is where Le Tissier was lacking imo. He was happy to play in a side that had little in the way of expectations and look great. That is not the same as playing for a big club in smaller league. Porto are the dominant side in Portugal and the rest of the league (but for Benfica and Sporting Lisbon at times) is quite poor, would you doubt the quality of their players or any of their recent achievements?

Im not sure I agree with you to be honest. I wouldnt have thought anymore of Le Tissier had he gone off to Rangers or Celtic. I would say there is more pressure in being the player that is seen as the guy who is going to keep you in the Premier League when you are one of many clubs that could be relegated.
Le Tiss could have cruised for most of the games up in Scotland which wouldnt have done him any good at all, whereas he was never going to be involved in a game in the english league where Southampton were favourites to win 3 or 4 nil.

diggers

Posts : 944
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by super_realist Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:16 am

Red, given their resources it is impossible to imagine the OF not finishing 1,2, so it's not difficult for the OF to do.
It's only happened once in twenty years.
Truth is, the league stinks and always has. Yes there have been good players, but like Scotland itself it had a small man, negative attitude and so it was mostly a retiral home for old hasbeen's after an easy pay day.

Did Laudrup go onto bigger things after Chelsea? As I recall he went to Copenhagen and a short mediocre spell at Ajax.

super_realist

Posts : 460
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by Redrage Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:24 am

super_realist wrote:
Did Laudrup go onto bigger things after Chelsea? As I recall he went to Copenhagen and a short mediocre spell at Ajax.

Bigger things? I never used that phrase, I said big clubs and Ajax are a big club. He had a full season there scoring 13 times in 31 games before retiring through injury.
Redrage
Redrage

Posts : 343
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by Redrage Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:28 am

diggers wrote:
Im not sure I agree with you to be honest. I wouldnt have thought anymore of Le Tissier had he gone off to Rangers or Celtic. I would say there is more pressure in being the player that is seen as the guy who is going to keep you in the Premier League when you are one of many clubs that could be relegated.

We'll need agree to disagree then. 3 teams will be relegated and only 1 can win the league. You don't even have to play well to stay up if others are performing worse than you.
Redrage
Redrage

Posts : 343
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by diggers Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:39 am

You would still need 3 teams to perform worse than you. Scotland is a 2 horse race so if Celtic have a poor season even an average Rangers side wins the league.

diggers

Posts : 944
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by super_realist Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:44 am

Come to think of it going to Copenhagen or Ajax certainly is going on to bigger teams than Celtic or Rangers. Laughing

The SPL is so bad that if I was Scotland manager I would exclude the players who play there from national selection.


super_realist

Posts : 460
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by Redrage Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:28 am

diggers wrote:You would still need 3 teams to perform worse than you. Scotland is a 2 horse race so if Celtic have a poor season even an average Rangers side wins the league.


This is the exact sort of arrogant comment I would expect from an somebody that has paid no attention to the Scottish League in their entire life. In fact I remember that sort of thing prior to Rangers beating Leeds home and Away in the first ever CL. Just because only 2 teams are likely to win the league doesn't mean the other teams don't have a significant role to play. You'd think Man U didn' t win the EPL 3/4 of the time. In fact there are never anymore than 3 teams likely to win most leagues in Europe. There is a big difference between hoping to avoid relegation and expecting to win a league. There is seldom much between Rangers and Celtic so every game is important. Teams at the bottom of the league can write off games against the top sides, a luxury winners don't have in any league.

super_realist wrote:

The SPL is so bad.


Is being the operative word... it wasn't always the case SR... perhaps you aren't old enough to remember or never that interested in the first place which would explain some of your shaky and ill informed observations.
Redrage
Redrage

Posts : 343
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by diggers Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:35 am

Wow, you are a bit touchy about your league being crap.

diggers

Posts : 944
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by raycastleunited Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:53 am

I reckon a decent League 1 side like Stevenage or MK Dons would challenge for the SPL.

Obviously I'm off in the land of speculation here, but the limited SPL stuff I've watched recently didn't feature much passing.
raycastleunited
raycastleunited

Posts : 413
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by super_realist Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:56 am

Red, I am old enough to remember when Aberdeen won the CWC and the League, when Dundee Utd won the league, got to the European Cup semi, only to be cheated out of a final appearance by a corrupt official bribed by Roma and the UEFA cup final V Gothenburg as well as Hearts nearly winning the league only to be denied by Albert Kidd, however that doens't necessarily mean it was of good quality, it just means that other leagues were not as good as they are now.

I think it's a case of all other leagues stepping it up in modern times and that means that the SPL have gone backwards in real terms. Football wasn't terribly professional back then, the leagues were a lot closer and as a result national teams were closer matched.

The simple fact is no one is interested in Scottish football enough in sufficient numbers for it ever to be good again, and I can't see it doing anything other than slipping down the UEFA ranks.

One silver lining is that we'll never have to endure the pettiness and childish behaviour of the pathetic Old Firm fans ever again in the Champions League as they haven't a hope of qualifying.


super_realist

Posts : 460
Join date : 2011-12-14

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by Doc Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:00 am

I think that we all need to remember that when the ITV money vanished it left the whole of Scottish football fighting against administration. Rangers were almost gone and Celtic struggled, so god knows how the smaller clubs were managing. The gulf between the OF and the EPL is now huge, and maybe only the bottom 6 prem sides down here, could have problems against the OF. Scottish footbal is having to do exactly what the EPL will/may have to do before too long and wonder how they would cope without Sky cash.
Doc
Doc

Posts : 1083
Join date : 2011-12-12
Location : Crewe, Cheshire

Back to top Go down

Frank Lampard and Joey Barton - Page 3 Empty Re: Frank Lampard and Joey Barton

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum