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England Golf's Guidance on Distance Measuring Devices ("DVDs")

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Matelot golfer
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Post by Mercurio Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:14 am

When you compare the restriction in 6 to what is allowed in 5, it's a complete and utter joke Evil or Very Mad

MEN’S CHAMPIONSHIP COMMITTEE


GUIDANCE ON DISTANCE MEASURING DEVICES (“DMDs”)

This paper aims to help Clubs and their members understand the rather complicated rules on DMDs. Technology changes rapidly and the interpretation of associated Rules also evolves. The following guidance reflects the ‘state of play’ at the time of writing. The guidance assumes a DMD is being used in competition.

1. Local Rule. You cannot use a DMD in competition at your Club unless the Club has introduced a Local Rule allowing DMDs. The Club should use the wording on page 136 of the new (2012-15) Rule Book. If your Club has introduced the Local Rule, it cannot then restrict the type of DMD you can use e.g. the Club cannot prevent mobile phones being used as DMDs (but see 6 below). If your DMD ‘conforms’, you can use it.

2. A ‘conforming’ DMD measures distance only. If your DMD can also give you information on other conditions which might affect your play, it doesn’t conform and the penalty is disqualification, even if you didn’t use that information.

3. Non-conforming features. If your DMD has e.g. a compass, spirit level or can gauge temperature or wind speed, the penalty is disqualification. Again, it doesn’t matter whether or not you have actually used those features. Most ‘usual’ DMDs are fine e.g. GPS type DMDs or optical rangefinders because (or if) they only measure distance. However, be careful, some optical models can measure ‘slope’. If yours can, it doesn’t conform and the penalty is disqualification.

4. Watches. Some DMDs can be worn on the wrist. If it also tells the time, that’s fine! No special rules here. You can wear a DMD on your wrist, on your belt, round your neck (!), carry it in your pocket, hang it on your bag or attach it to your trolley. However, it mustn’t have a non-conforming feature, even if you don’t use it or it’s switched off. If it does have one, it’s a ‘DQ’.

5. Trolleys. Some have built-in DMDs. Not a problem as such. But, it mustn’t have any non-conforming features (see 3 above). Some do. However, many modern ones can be switched to “competition mode”. That’s fine. Alternatively, England Golf accepts that if the non-conforming features – or displays – are “taped over” so they can’t be seen, that’s also fine. If there is evidence that, during a round, the trolley is switched back to “non-competition mode” or the tape covering a non-conforming feature is taken off so the “illegal” information can be seen, you’ll face disqualification.

6. Mobile phones used as DMDs. Be very, very careful! Many people download a DMD “App” on to their phones. In itself, not a problem. The problem is this: If your phone has any other features or Apps which don’t conform and the phone is used as a DMD, you will be disqualified whether or not such features or Apps are used. Just having one on the phone makes the use of that phone as a DMD “illegal”. The owner may not realise it but many mobile phones have, for instance, a compass or spirit level as a feature. If your phone has a weather App or facility which gauges actual temperature or wind speed, it’s a disqualification. Again, it doesn’t matter whether that feature or App is used or not. It’s worth quoting from the England Golf Men’s “Hard Card” (Standard Local Rules etc.):

“Advice on the use of mobile phones as a distance measuring device: Because of problems over whether a particular phone conforms to the Local Rule and, therefore, to protect players from the risk of disqualification, (England Golf) strongly recommends that mobile phones are not used as distance measuring devices”.

7. Mobile phones used as phones. Clubs may not restrict the type of DMD a player uses, as long as it is a conforming DMD (1 above). However, a Club can have a “regulation” on using phones – as phones. England Golf has the following regulation:

“Mobile phones (including pagers and similar devices): May not be used on the course (including on practice days) by players or caddies for making/sending or receiving calls or texts, except in cases of emergency”.

England Golf would take disciplinary action against a player for breach of this regulation. England Golf is very happy for players to carry mobile phones in their golf bags, so that, if there is an emergency, they can phone the office, pro shop, emergency service etc.

8. Other playing “aids”. If your DMD has a feature or App which helps you, for instance, read/gauge/measure the slope on a green (such Apps can be downloaded on to some mobile phones), then, whether or not that feature or App is used, the penalty is disqualification.


England Golf Men’s Championship Committee.

May 2012

References:

 Rule 14-3 and the Note at the end of this Rule
 Specimen Local Rule on page 136 of the Rule Book
 Appendix IV on Distance Measuring Devices, page 162 of the Rule Book
 England Golf Men’s “Hard Card”, Local Rule 10 (The Hard Card can be viewed at and downloaded from England Golf’s website, under the ‘Championships’ section)
 R&A’s “The Rules Regarding Distance Measuring Devices” (can be viewed at and downloaded from the R&A’s website. Contains a very useful flowchart)
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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:26 am

I guess you can use your phone in bounce games but not in comps if allowed by local rules on DMDs. Just tried to see if I could remove the compass feature on my phone but couldn't do it otherwise I would be investing in an app and deleting weather apps

Rule 5 looks to avoid what happened recently in one of the championships. There was a ban on DMDs but some competitors fell foul of this because their trollies calculated the distance travelled and that led to them being DQ'd.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:26 am

Merc

a) where have you been?

b) i completely agree with you. How can trolleys that can measure temperature or anything other than distance be allowable if that function is switched off (i won't even comment on the joke that is 'taped over'?!) but a phone device that can measure temperature or anything other than distance is a DQ if that function is also switched off

Can anyone suggest a difference???

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:31 am

I don't see a discernible difference MPB especially as this stuff is getting built into phones now.

Looks like they're basically saying trollies are okay but phones are not.

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Post by Mercurio Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:35 am

MPB - I've been in that dark place where golfers go for months at a time when their golfing of the ball does not go as they think it should.
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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:37 am

Mercurio wrote:MPB - I've been in that dark place where golfers go for months at a time when their golfing of the ball does not go as they think it should.

Apparently it was so bad he had to have his ball retriever regripped England Golf's Guidance on Distance Measuring Devices ("DVDs") 3461234324

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Post by Mercurio Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:02 am

VG
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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:38 am

I'm sure it will come back Merc, stick with it mate.

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Post by Mercurio Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:21 am

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:I'm sure it will come back Merc, stick with it mate.

It already has - per the thread I started yesterday England Golf's Guidance on Distance Measuring Devices ("DVDs") 1927768590
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Post by MustPuttBetter Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:23 am

I see Merc, we should have sorted that round at Bramley
Golfing with me would make you feel better about your game

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Post by Mercurio Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:27 am

Thanks, MPB - after all, misery does enjoy company.
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Post by Mercurio Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:34 am

Mercurio wrote:MPB - I've been in that dark place where golfers go for months at a time when their golfing of the ball does not go as they think it should.

Oh, and I also lost 11kgs in just over 6 weeks (I think this may have affected my game).

The irony being that I lost the weight to get into my Trilby Tour strides only for me to then play like a twunt on the day. Part of the problem was that I can't play on very wet courses - I was covered in clart from head to toe.

Can't wait to do it again next year!
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Post by super_realist Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:45 am

Good effort Merc, no more Shane Lowry comparisons.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:48 am

Did you have the squits??

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:02 am

No, he chopped off a body part then realised he couldn't swing the club as he used to with just one leg.

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Post by Mercurio Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:08 am

super_realist wrote:Good effort Merc, no more Shane Lowry comparisons.

It was never that bad!
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Post by Matelot golfer Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:12 am

Wonder why people still see golf as being run by old farts with too many anal rules. Well done Dawson and your team. No wonder people are leaving golf in droves!!

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Post by BlueCoverman Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:01 pm

Not sure that I entirely agree with that Matelot. I suspect that if people are leaving golf in droves it is more for the reason of simple economics
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Post by Matelot golfer Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:04 am

Sorry, I meant to add amongst other things of course!! 5 hour rounds behind people watching each others every shot and people still not treating single players as groups and playing them thru springs to mind!!

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Post by BlueCoverman Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:24 am

No arguments on those two England Golf's Guidance on Distance Measuring Devices ("DVDs") 1927768590
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Post by smithersjones Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:28 am

I was really pleasantly surprised when I went out on my own for 9 holes last week. Not one but two groups called me through without the slightest hesitation. The first was a mixed fourball, which made me think that the men wanted to let me through because they were maybe a bit conscious that their partners weren't very quick (not being sexist, it appeared they were father and daughters and the girls were clearly beginners. As such, they would no doubt have called me through if they were boys.) The second group, though, was a two-ball who seemed to be playing at a reasonable pace, albeit that they were also relative novices.)


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Post by LondonJonnyO Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:12 am

is it really a shock that phone based gps is now banned? It was always a bit dodgy after all.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:07 am

Why's that LJ?

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Post by LondonJonnyO Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:09 am

because there was no control over what players could do with them once on the course.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:14 am

Fair enough. So if I really wanted to check the wind direction during a round who's controlling whether I put a compass in my bag?

And how do trolleys that do other things get through?

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Post by Mercurio Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:14 am

LondonJonnyO wrote:because there was no control over what players could do with them once on the course.

Like what?
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Post by BlueCoverman Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:16 am

LondonJonnyO wrote:because there was no control over what players could do with them once on the course.

Sounds like my Driver, I wish someone would ban that! England Golf's Guidance on Distance Measuring Devices ("DVDs") 3461234324
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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:41 am

BlueCoverman wrote:
LondonJonnyO wrote:because there was no control over what players could do with them once on the course.

Sounds like my Driver, I wish someone would ban that! England Golf's Guidance on Distance Measuring Devices ("DVDs") 3461234324

Well walk like the rest of us you lazy bar steward England Golf's Guidance on Distance Measuring Devices ("DVDs") 3461234324

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Post by LondonJonnyO Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:54 pm

a compass doesn't show wind direction. however the weather apps on the iphone do give you a windspeed indicator and direction. Of course on the other hand since I play next to an airfield the windsock and direction of the planes taking off and landing kind of negate that need anyway.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:12 pm

Irrelevant to the discussion but no it doesn't, however the compass function amongst others is often mentioned as one the 'things it can do that might be abused'.....

My point is yes you have to trust someone not to use the things on their phone that they shouldn't but that's the same as trusting they haven't taken those things and put them in their bag, the same as trusting someone to call a foul on themselves if their ball moves and certainly the same as trusting someone to turn applications on their trolley off (or tape over?!) that also shouldn't be used.
I can't see why phone based GPS devices are singled out.
Actually i can - they're cheaper than the usual versions and the companies no doubt apply pressure to the R&A to make sure phone versions are outlawed

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Post by Mercurio Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:54 pm

LondonJonnyO wrote:a compass doesn't show wind direction. however the weather apps on the iphone do give you a windspeed indicator and direction.

If you look at the R&A's Flowchart to determine whether a device is conforming or not, you will see that having a weather App does not, on its own, make a device non-conforming.

If a weather App needs an internet connection to provide the information, the device is conforming (subject to all other Apps conforming, of course).
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Post by smithersjones Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:06 pm

Mercurio wrote:
LondonJonnyO wrote:a compass doesn't show wind direction. however the weather apps on the iphone do give you a windspeed indicator and direction.

If you look at the R&A's Flowchart to determine whether a device is conforming or not, you will see that having a weather App does not, on its own, make a device non-conforming.

If a weather App needs an internet connection to provide the information, the device is conforming (subject to all other Apps conforming, of course).

The weather app is fine, but the accelerometer that just about every phone has built in will mean that no-one (possibly only if they've downloaded a spirit level type app?) will be able to use their phone as a DMD.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:15 pm

Accelerometer? - err what? Does my phone have one of these?

Merc, i assume that means an internet connection as opposed to the telephone network or 3G connection?

What a load of rubbish this all is

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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:26 pm

I've looked this accelerometer up and i understand it's the thing that knows if my phone is turned sideways or not and so either flips the screen or not. I can't tell you how useful to my golf that is........

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Post by Mercurio Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:43 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:Accelerometer? - err what? Does my phone have one of these?

Merc, i assume that means an internet connection as opposed to the telephone network or 3G connection?

What a load of rubbish this all is

I had assumed an internet connection includes a 3G connection, but I can see why the differece could be pertinent.

I was thinking that the point was if an App can't measure whatever condition is illegal without an internet connection, then it's OK (i.e. you can't just whip it out and get an instant wind-speed rating for exactly where you are).

I note the possible peculiarity of the point of an internet connection, but that's what the flowchart suggests.

However, as I've said before, ideally, the nuances shouldn't really matter because no-one (who is not an utter twunt) would ever base how they play their shot based on an internet weather App or compass because it simply wouldn't provide them with any more useful information than they can get by simply being there or throwing grass in the air.

This is, by far, the most ridiculous Rule of Golf in my mind.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:48 pm

The reason i was asking is how is any phone going to be able to give you weather updates without some sort of connection to the internet, be that wifi, 3G or the phone network??

Ridiculous is exactly what it is

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Post by smithersjones Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:10 pm

Accelerometer measures the angle that the phone is at, and as such could be used to determine slope.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:21 pm

Would it be harder to spot someone laying their phone on the green to test the slope than it would to spot someone with a spirit level?

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Post by Mercurio Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:35 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:The reason i was asking is how is any phone going to be able to give you weather updates without some sort of connection to the internet, be that wifi, 3G or the phone network??

Ridiculous is exactly what it is

I thought you highlighting the difference between obtaining an internet connection via wi-fi (not really possible on the course) and 3G (quite possible on the course).

I'll take back the credit I gave you for your lawyer-esce pedancy Wink
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:37 pm

I'm not that clever Merc

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Post by Mercurio Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:40 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:I'm not that clever Merc

Oh, I know that - you're a tax adviser Innocent
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:48 pm

Advisor Innocent

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Post by Mercurio Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:55 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:Advisor Innocent

You can have that credit back for pedancy Smile

However, . . .

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/advisor
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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:07 am

I quote that wiki article -

"adviser is used more generally to mean someone who is giving advice (what they are doing), whereas advisor is more commonly used when it means the primary role (what they are), such as job title"

Hence.....advisor Smile
I don't think this is life changing though, was just having a joke

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Post by Mercurio Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:27 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:I quote that wiki article -

"adviser is used more generally to mean someone who is giving advice (what they are doing), whereas advisor is more commonly used when it means the primary role (what they are), such as job title"

Hence.....advisor Smile
I don't think this is life changing though, was just having a joke

Oh, I know it's just a bit of fun.

I was referring to this bit:

In the UK, Ireland and Asia the spelling is traditionally adviser
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Post by Mercurio Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:31 am

And the name of the CIOT's magazine is . . .
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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:32 am

"In the UK, Ireland and Asia the spelling is traditionally adviser" not in any type of english class i went to

And a magazine cannot be itself an advisor and therefore is an object giving advice, an adviser

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Post by Mercurio Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:39 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:"In the UK, Ireland and Asia the spelling is traditionally adviser" not in any type of english class i went to

And a magazine cannot be itself an advisor and therefore is an object giving advice, an adviser

I could refute the above but I'll be generous and offer you adviser and advisor being interchangeable.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:42 am

I do not accept tongue but will leave this discussion at that all the same

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:07 am

Busy at work lads Innocent

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