New Irons - a question

As I mentioned on the "tell us about your game today" thread, I've now played two rounds with my new Ping G-15 irons, and I love them!

My old clubs were 12-15 years old Nicklaus N1s and although they were advertised as cavity backs, a few people commented on them that they were almost "semi-blades" and I feel I just couldn't do them justice (apart from the fact they were very old). I'm loving the confidence I have with the bigger heads and larger cavity backs and I'm getting a lot more distance from them (though I'm not a big hitter, I'm now getting more like the sort of yardage that my playing partners do - at times almost a two club difference from the old ones!)

One thing I am struggling with though is short chips (10-20 yards). I favour 7-iron chip-and-run where practical but I'm talking about where I need a higher chip and have always used a SW for this in the past. However, this hasn't been successful so far

Now I'm no wedge expert; I don't have specialist wedges, only the ones that came with the set of irons and while I'm aware there is a property of wedges called bounce(?) I'm pretty ignorant of this area

Is it possible that the standard SW in the set isn't ideal for this type of shot? I'm been OK with it out of sand so far, and for a full shot from further out, but the short chips are defeating me at the moment.

Is it likely I should be using perhaps the PW for this sort of shot or is it more likely that I just need more practice with the new SW?

I appreciate there may be no hard and fast answer to this; I'm also not talking about chipping out of deeper rough - just off 1st cut rough or even closely mown areas (though they aren't hard and "tight" yet after the wet summer). Just looking for some opinions really

Davie good luck with your new toys mate. As for the wedge question, I think you'll find that the SW works well once you've played with it a few times, but if you're worried about it go for a 60* wedge, it may make you feel a bit more confidence.

Standard wedges are usually around 46* for PW and 54* for SW. I have a 51* and 57*, and the 57 is used for sand, deep cabbage, off the turf around the greens and over bunkers. It works really well and is also a great weapon from 75 yards out as it stops fast. Like you I prefer using an 8-iron from just off the green, but we all need to be able to get some 'air' for those tricky shots.

You haven't really stated what you encounter with the new one; is it a case of running everything long? I had a distance control issue when I changed from some cobras to big berthas. If so I would bet that your new one is both bigger and heavy than your old club and you are now imparting more force wih your new club. Either you buy a traditional style wedge or adjust to the new club

If that's not your situation; what's happening?

Thanks Doc - looks like I maybe just need more practice

Sorry Grumps I didn't explain myself properly - it's nothing like that (though I am having to get used to new distances with these clubs with full shots)

With the short greenside chips, I'm just duffing them all the time - certainly not overhitting!

I have a 60 degree wedge and I love it - from sand, pitching over bunkers and all sorts of shots from around 40 yards out as well as chipping when there is a downhill slope on the green to the pin.

Treat yourself and see how you go

Ok Davie. Could be a myriad of problems like decelerating for instance. I'd still compare both clubs, how they sit, is one more offset than another etc. Then go see your pro for a short game lesson and practice!

Test yourself once in a while around the practice green. 9 or 10 balls and putt each one out after chipping. Keep track of the score and try to beat that next time out. You want to put yourself in the same position you are on the course so it's a one time thing each time.

Yes I think you are right Grumps. I'm not the best practicer in the world at the best of times and though I've forced myself down the range to try to get used to the new sticks, short game practice is something I don't really concentrate enough on

I'll certainly persevere with it though after all your comments - think it just may be taking me longer to get used to that shot than it has done so far with the rest of the set

It could all be down to the make up of each club; how you set up with the new club could put you in a different position to what it was with the old one. Your pro should be able to spot that easily and give you some pointers to work on.

I'll admit my descriptive powers are not very good and it could be easy to get confused. Also, without anybody seeing what you are doing you could get 5 different pieces of advice and they'll all be wrong for you.

Davie in the wise words of Butch Harmon - commit to the shot. Having gone through a period of 'duffing' these shots I just try and get rid of the bad thoughts, commit and follow through. It seems to work for me as I get some big air and check on the ball. It's like playing out of some of the thick semi around the green, the number of times we worry about thinning or over hitting makes us not hit it properly, causing embarassing shots. I just follow through and it usually works.

Could be the bounce on your new SW is too big ??

Ping irons seem to have a large thick sole, that could be causing your problem......

Setup - that was a reason I mentioned "bounce" in my opening post, even though I don't pretend to understand it. The SW in particular does seem to have a VERY thick sole

Most SW's have around 10* bounce, and to be fair I don't think bounce is something most of us need to worry about. A lower or higher bounce is usually only factored in for more proficient players I believe.

My Miura K-Grind has 12* bounce and my Miura Y-Grind has 9* bounce. The Miura C-Grind has a progressive bounce from 12 to 15* depending on loft.

Most OEMs use the same formula including Ping so a SW will be from a minimum of 10 and lob/gap wedges progressing up.

Confused yet Davie

One other thing - unrelated to the chipping issue, but I mention it here anyway.

My old irons were very light and I felt that this was causing me to swing "inside" my address position - when I addressed the ball "normally" and then went through with the shot I found I was hitting a lot off the toe of the club. I never tried to "fix" this, just adjusted to it by addressing the ball more off the heel. Maybe I should have attempted to "fix" the problem but by adjusting this way I got around it

However, when I was fitted for the new clubs, the fitter commented I was addressing witht he new clubs off the heel - and hitting them slightly off the heel too! I assume that the heavier clubs are causing me to bring the club back to a more normal address position - something I have to remember now to avoid hitting off the heel, but so far, happy days!

Grumps - you must've heard the whooshing sound as Doc's last post went right over my head! Thanks to Doc for trying though! What I DID take most out of his post though was that the "bounce" factor is maybe more important to more proficient players which is what I suspected

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:Confused yet Davie

I'm glad I wasn't the only one

LadyPutt wrote:I have a 60 degree wedge and I love it - from sand, pitching over bunkers and all sorts of shots from around 40 yards out as well as chipping when there is a downhill slope on the green to the pin.

Treat yourself and see how you go :rimshot:

LP I do the same as you and use my 60 degree from sand, however I do have a question about it… I thought sand wedges had a bigger bounce which helps get the ball out of bunkers…. So are we making it more difficult for ourselves by using the 60 degree as opposed to the sandwedge?

LadyPutt wrote:

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:Confused yet Davie

I'm glad I wasn't the only one

Where is LJ when you need him?...too busy changing nappies no doubt!

I disagree with the assertion that bounce is only for better players. The amount of bounce a sand wedge has will dictate how easily it passes through the sand on a bunker shot. As such, a club with more bounce should be easier to get the ball out of a bunker with. However, at address on short grass, if the club face is square to the target then a wedge with a lot of bounce will have its leading edge some way off the turf. If you're fatting chips, it could be because the bounce is hitting the ground before the leading edge makes contact with the ball. I'd certainly try using the pitching wedge instead, particularly if you're trying to get some run on the shot.

You didn't want a lot of bounce on your sand wedge playing out of the wet, compacted bunkers in the last couple of months!

A simplistic view used to decide what bounce option to choose, from the multitudes available, is to determine the type and firmness of the turf and sand at your club and take into consideration how you swing.

For rock hard fairways and bunkers (think no raking required as you can't see any changes to the surface) and for those that pick the ball off of the turf (think no blades of grass disturbed) low bounce options are supposed to be optimal.

For lush, wet turf, and for those that dig and gouge with their swing (think the type of divots you could relay your lawn with) and soft, sandy bunkers (think sinking to your ankles as soon as you step foot in) high bounce options are supposed to be optimal

For conditions and swings inbetween these extremes then mid bounce options are supposed to be optimal.

However if you swing like an orangutan trying to chop down a tree with a scythe then these options will likely be the least of your worries.

That reminds me Grumps of the best ever put-down description of a golf swing that I ever heard:-

"Like a bloke locked in a telephone box, trying to kill a poisonous snake with an umbrella"

Nice one Blue. I might use that next time I'm out.

I've been told I have a nice turn of phrase at times to describe playing conditions and styles. They're always guaranteed to get a laugh. The least likely to offend phrase is Sweating like a glass blowers arse. Others may have to be PM'd

Bouncy,,Bouncy

My mate has Ping G15s or it could be G20s, you could re-lay your lawn with the size of divots he takes.

The only time I take divots like that Setup is when I hit abour 2 inches behind the ball and take turf like an elephant's footprint.

I did have to laugh a few weeks ago though when approaching the 11th green at my club - the 11th green is way off to the right of the 12th tee (a par 3)

There on the approach to the 11th green was a massive divot hole - but at 90 degrees to the approach to the green. We all wondered how that had happened and eventually decided that it was a VERY wayward shot from the 12th - but oh how we laughed at how far off line the shot from the 12th tee must've been to end up there

I'm sure you've guessed by now what I did on the 12th tee - hit one so far off the toe that I was almost in this monster divot hole!

Good thing there was no one close behind us on the 11th green at the time

BlueCoverman wrote:

LadyPutt wrote:

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:Confused yet Davie

I'm glad I wasn't the only one

Where is LJ when you need him?...too busy changing nappies no doubt!

Right. I'm back and have read through all this with a certain amount of interest.

Ok. First lets focus on that wide sole and an assumption on bounce. A club with a wider sole is likely to feature less bounce. The reason for this is that the sole width and the lower bounce combine to provide more effective bounce when you use the club and even more when you open the thing up in a bunker. Couple that with a big old clubface and it's going to get a bit clumsy.

Next is loft. A sandwedge has no defined loft. It's all about the player and the conditions. I carry what would be termed two sand irons. a 54 and a 57. Both are very different with the first having a wide(ish) sole and very low bounce and the other a huge amount of bounce with a very narrow sole and a highly relieved trailing edge. Both have different uses and purposes in my bag.

Now to Davies post. You say you've been having good results from the bunkers with this wedge. That doesn't shock me. Sand at the moment is likely very compact and firm. That low bounce when using a wider sole will help you not dig whilst also not dig into the sand. The low bounce will basically let you cut through it better and the sole will keep it from digging too much thus giving the ideal combination in those conditions.

For chip shots however it is going to be very different. Without knowing what your turf is like and the sort of shot you are playing it's hard to say what's right. So a question. When you chip or pitch with this club do you try to maintain a lowish swing with very little downstrike? Or do you try to trap the ball with a descending blow? Also... what's the typical bad shot in terms of strike?

Welcome back LJ - you've been missed!

I'll try to answer the questions in your final paragraph... the sort of shot I'm trying to play is a 10-15 yard chip - probably over a bunker or something similar otherwise I'd probably choose a more chip-and-run option. The types of lie I'm referring to are either light (semi) rough or closely mown area, though the turf isn't hard and firm or what one would describe as a "tight lie"

It's not so much the "trap the ball with a descending blow - more the lowish swing with little downstrike. The typical bad shot (though bear in mind I've only had the new bats out on the course twice so far so it's a small sample) is just a duff - hitting behind the ball probably - as someone else suggested, a lot of it is probably not committing to the shot and decellerating into it.

Thanks for your interest though!

OK. So it's more a lofted type shot where you want enough acceleration but also control to get it to stop a bit.

I'd say it's not a commitment/acceleration issue but more a trying to lift it up in the air issue. Next time you're on the course try this. Take a backswing like you would to pop the ball up and over a bunker and sit softly on the green. But before you take the downswing unhinge your wrists. If you do it properly you'll hit the ground first. That's trying to flip under the ball and "help it up".

The club probably isn't helping either. Mainly as that really wide sole is not going to help you get under the ball through any type of roughish grass. It's going to get held up by it. Couple that with a big face and you'll have more problems.

First look at the wrists thing (and for crying out loud hit down on the bloody thing!) then if you still have issues try proper wedges out to find what works for you.

Remember lob shots are not all arms. You still need to get your body clear to do anything effective with the shot.

Here's a tip. Imagine you are keeping your chest in sync with the club and that what you are doing on those 15 yard pitches is turning your chest through to the target with a nice rythym. that should stop you flipping it over and just let the ball pop up from a descending strike.

Food for thought indeed! Cheers mate

Played today and tried to take onboard everything people said here, without cluttering my mind too much - basically much better though! Just needs a bit more practise on the short game with the new bats I think - full shots still OK though I did find I was thinning a few 3/4 wedge shots. More to do with hangover though I reckon - will try again tomorrow in a bounce game rather than under the pressure of a big comp