The racist (non) handshake!

Good grief, who's stupid idea was it to do this anyway?

Mind you, I have to give it 10/10 for choreographing. Suarez snubs Evra, Man U goalie tries to pass Suarez's hand back to Evra and Ferdinand deftly steps back to avoid 'the godless hand' altogether!

Sir Alex is spot on...For me Liverpool's famous history has been destroyed by a racist player and a complete idiot of a manager.
King Kenny is now Clown Kenny.

All a bit unsavoury today, could have done without Evra going bananas at the end well as Ferguson admitted. I've lost all respect for Daglish this season, he has moaned and whined about everything and his comments on the Suarez issue have just been moronic.

Quite apart from anything else diggers, he contradicted himself in the post-match interview. One minute he was saying he didn't know anything about it and the next ... "that's not what I heard".

The Liverpool fans deserve better than that.

Bit surprised that Suarez did not have direct instructions from the Liverpool owners that he must shake Evra's hand...that would have drawn a line under it and probably would have been the end of it.

Now it's all kicked off again and it's going to drag on and on, I suspect that it is now a very long way back from this point.

gaelgowfer wrote:Quite apart from anything else diggers, he contradicted himself in the post-match interview. One minute he was saying he didn't know anything about it and the next ... "that's not what I heard".

The Liverpool fans deserve better than that.

Great footballer Kenny, but never was the most articulate

BC, be interesting to see how the Liverpool club deals with this. Surely Suarez will have to suffer some kind of sanction?

It will be interesting indeed Gael. Certainly don't think that the Liverpool players will be allowed to wear shirts showing their support for Suarez on this occasion!

Can't see Liverpool doing anything at all in a million years and I doubt the FA can, they never took action when Bridge ignored Terry. Different scenario I know (dont blame Bridge at all) but was the same action at the end of the day.

Not only that, but JT didn't try to grab Bridge's hand after he'd been ignored.

I don't like Suarez, I don't like Evra and I don't like Rio - but it's seeming like a bit of a witchhunt against Suarez. Remember, the referee stepped in to pull Evra away when he reacted angrily and grabbed at Suarez after the snub and the referee (or assistant) stepped in when Evra celebrated right in front of Suarez

Sir Alex has come out and condemned Suarez but not a word from him (or the media) about Evra's grab or Rio's snub

gaelgowfer wrote:Quite apart from anything else diggers, he contradicted himself in the post-match interview. One minute he was saying he didn't know anything about it and the next ... "that's not what I heard".

The Liverpool fans deserve better than that.

From what I've read, I think that Kenny had been led to believe that Suarez was going to shake hands, and that is what he was referring to when he said "that's not what I heard". Kenny did look very uncomfortable in that interview though - I'm sure he was dying to give Geoff Shreeves a Glasgow Kiss.

I think that the Liverpool image has been tarnished by their continued support of Suarez. All in all, a sorry state of affairs all round.

To be honest I don't think they should do the handshake thing, causes more hassle than its worth. The skippers shake hands before kick off, that's more than enough. It's not a tea party, it's a sports event.
It's not like golfers or tennis players are required for some formal handshake ceremony before a game.

Totally agree Diggers - should just go back to the "old days", when players shook hands when leaving the pitch (if they chose to do so).

Suarez needs to get over it, even if he does feel Evra got away with his part in the original saga. He should have shaken his hand and then put him up in the air with a crunching tackle or two during the game... perhaps I am bit old fashioned that way.

Mary_S wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:Quite apart from anything else diggers, he contradicted himself in the post-match interview. One minute he was saying he didn't know anything about it and the next ... "that's not what I heard".

The Liverpool fans deserve better than that.

From what I've read, I think that Kenny had been led to believe that Suarez was going to shake hands, and that is what he was referring to when he said "that's not what I heard". Kenny did look very uncomfortable in that interview though - I'm sure he was dying to give Geoff Shreeves a Glasgow Kiss.

I think that the Liverpool image has been tarnished by their continued support of Suarez. All in all, a sorry state of affairs all round.

I stand corrected Mary. Listened to the interview again and realised my error.

Sorry Kenny!

Well Suarez has just apologised through Liverpool's website, although didn't directly include Evra, he recognised he should have shook hands.

Liverpool have also thrown Suarez under the bus laying it fairly and squarely on Suarez. They may be looking to take Ferguson's advice and get rid of him by making it difficult for him to be at the club. According to Liverpool he was going to shake hands with Evra yesterday.

On a general note about handshakes I think Tony Adams had the right idea. No matter the result, shook hands with the opposition captain, linesmen and ref and then straight down the tunnel.

I would guess that the apologies today were following instructions from the owners - they will not have been happy seeing their global brand tarnished in this way!

Mary, I think that is so true. There could be not doubt really from the statement from Ian Ayre.

Could it be any clearer that two people were forced to apologise when they had no desire to do so whatsoever. Still hopefully it will draw a line unde it.
To be honest Evra has been a fantastic player but is past his sell by and this could be his last year as a first choice starter.
I'd be suprised if Suarez didn't move on as well, South Americans never seem to stay for that long over here. Tevez is a bit of an exception but he had moved clubs 3 times. And Suarez seems equally as big a tool as Tevez.

Has Evra apologized yet for grabbing at Suarez? Or for his post-match celebrations?

I don't think the grabbing was anything to apologise for personally. Suarez caused that by his action, also don't blame Rio for reacting and refusing to shake Suarez hand.
The celebration was OTT but was in front of his own fans at Old Trafford. I don't think it warrants an apology but we could have done without it.
Ultimately what happened yesterday started with Suarez and as far as the FA viewed it and from any bans handed out over the incident, Suarez was the guilty party, not Evra.

Evra and Ferdinand had the perfect opportunity to come out of this with the moral highground - they both failed IMO

Evra yes, I don't think Ferdinand did anything wrong on the slightest.

diggers wrote:Evra yes, I don't think Ferdinand did anything wrong on the slightest.

Suarez held his hand out to Ferdinand; Ferdinand refused it

It may be described as a reaction to Suarez in the first place but that's what I mean about missing the moral high ground. As far as I know Suarez has no issues with Ferdinand

Ferdinand had a second to make a decision after seeing Suarez, the guilty party, snub his team mate. He didn't have hours to ponder whether to take the moral high ground. To condemn for acting in support of his friend after having a second to deliberate the matter to me is completely unfair.

Davie wrote:Has Evra apologized yet for grabbing at Suarez? Or for his post-match celebrations?

The thing is Suarez never reacted at all to the celebrations, he just ignored it and carried onto the tunnel, so I think that is something that he deserves some credit for.

I do think his time at Liverpool is coming to an end and I wouldn't be surprised to see him leave in the summer.

I would be very surprised if Liverpool got rid of Suarez because of this. He does seem like a bit of an idiot (as does Evra) but he is a very very good player.

I have to be honest, it's ok for United to say 'let's forget about this and move on' because they 'won' (for want of a better term).
Let's not forget that Suarez has been condemned forever more here as a racist and yet there is no proof whatsoever other than Evra saying he is one.
If Suarez genuinely feels like he's been stitched up, that's not the sort of thing you just say 'oh ok, never mind, well played, let's shake hands now'.

If you're Suarez and you did not do what you have been accused and punished for, would you shake hands? I wouldn't

Doesnt seem like Liverpools owners agree with you MPB. The FA deemed there was sufficent proof of some wrong doing to ban Suarez, from what I can see Suarez has admitted using language that Evra could have found found insulting but in Suarez opinion was simply day to day banter. Well unfortunately for him its not day to day banter in the UK.
If Suarez had been contrite from the start and said he'd made a mistake and actually apologised to Evra I doubt this would have been anything like the big deal it became and I also doubt this ban would have been so long.

Digs, no doubt the owners don't as their 'brand' is being damaged and i doubt they much care who is right or wrong

The FA admitted there was no proof at all, only that Evra's story was consistent and Suarez wasn't.
If someone came at me saying "you killed him", i'd probably start with "err, umm, what? excuse me?"
That seems by FA law to make me guilty.

The fact is, i don't know if he's guilty or not or whether he genuinely said something of a racist nature of not. He may well have done.
My point was, if i was him and i honestly felt like i'd been stitched up and unfairly labelled a racist, i wouldn't have shaken his hand either as it's not okay to just 'move on' from that

Well I guess we all have to form our own judgement on what Suarez said or didnt say. As I said earlier his comments about what he deems as acceptable language make me sure that what he said was sufficent for Evra to take umbridge, I cant see for the life of me why Evra would lie about it.
So yes if Suarez has been stitched up then he would have a point, I dont think he was for one second and thats what Im basing my opinions on. And I think he will go whether or not Liverpool want to keep him or not. There will be some falling out about something or other before long Im sure and he will be on his bike.

diggers wrote:I don't think the grabbing was anything to apologise for personally. Suarez caused that by his action, also don't blame Rio for reacting and refusing to shake Suarez hand.
The celebration was OTT but was in front of his own fans at Old Trafford. I don't think it warrants an apology but we could have done without it.
Ultimately what happened yesterday started with Suarez and as far as the FA viewed it and from any bans handed out over the incident, Suarez was the guilty party, not Evra.

Spot on diggers. Indeed, had any of the other Man U players (aside from Ferdinand) witnessed the snub, I wouldn't have blamed them for not shaking hands with Suarez either.

I think it's almost impossible to figure out whether Suarez made a racist comment or otherwise due to the complete lack of evidence. The fact he was banned for 8 games was a joke, and he clearly feels hard done by. If he had done it he's had a really good chance to let it all fade away and be forgotten about but he chose not to so he clearly feels an injustice has been done.
That being the case (whether rightly or wrongly) i'm not surprised he didn't shake Evra's hand.

I don't think Liverpool will get rid of him. Not because of this. Who scored their goal against United? He's too good to ditch and in spite of all of this their business is to win football matches.
Time will tell

I dont see how its impossible. You get both parties up before a hearing and you listen to what they have to say and then you make a decision based on what you hear. I dont see any reason to believe there is any kind of which hunt going on against Suarez, the panel that made the decision was an independant tribunal.
Im not saying Liverpool will get rid of him because of this, Im saying he will probably go at some stage probably in the next season or so and it will be more his choice than Liverpools.

It's not impossible to come to a decision that much is true, but it is almost impossible to come to a fair one.
You get both guys up and listen to them? That's what they did. Not surprisingly the one who is more articulate, more collected and proficient at English than the other got the decision.
Still boils down to one saying one thing and the other saying something different. No evidence, no witnesses. Without some sort of proof you shouldn't really be able to condemn someone.

I'm not saying he didn't do it, he may have. I don't know. No one does apart from him and Evra - that's the point

It has to be said and possibly should have been factored in, that Evra accused Senegalese fans of racially abusing him when he visited there and got into an argument about choosing to play for France. Steve Finnan was accused of racially abusing him in a game v Liverpool a few years back (Finnan was cleared). He got in a row with a Chelsea groundsman and accused him of racially abusing him in 2008 (Evra was banned for 4 games). He accused Domanech at the 2010 world cup of picking based on race after leaving out Henry and sending Anelka home.
Now either a lot of people racially abuse Patrice Evra or it's a very convenient stance for him to take

Its equally true that a lot of South American players use terms that are even acceptable on the continent but not over here. John Barnes was talking about it this morning, saying he couldnt believe what a player called Makelele lately when he was over for some promo event and Makalele just responded to it without a problem.
As I said earlier from what I have seen of Suarez comments that is what happened, both the FA and and indeed Evra concluded that Suarez was not a racist but however had used phrases referring to race.
That seems to me to have been what happened. You could call Suarez unfortunate, in which case going back to what I said earlier a simple apology at the time would have stopped an awful lot of grief.
But we will never know, at the end of the day you think one thing and I another, such is life.

Liverpool and their manager have acted abhorently all the way through this fiasco. Dagleish has made things worse all the way through and has disgraced the club. The scouse fans or more precice certain section of scouse fans have loved it, and the t-shirt thing and everything is stupid in the extreme. Now they've been forced to submit aplogies weeks and weeks after this thing should have been ended.

I watched Evra's display after the match and he revelled in it and was completley OTT. he has no excuse for that behaviour and red nose should admonish him for it. He has only made things even worse now, because the scouse fans will remember him when next at Anfield, and we could see some serious incidents off the pitch.

The 2 idiots should get together and do an interview to try and defuse the situation

That's absolutely correct Digs, they do use terms that might be taken differently over. Whether we should embrace them or they should embrace us or a bit of both is a much bigger discussion.

Apparently the word Suarez used was 'negro', with the 'neg' part pronounced like 'leg' rather than how we might say it. He says, and Gus Poyet backs him up, that this is a term used in Uruguay for anything black in nature. Suarez says he refers to his dad as 'negro' beause he has black hair and in fact i believe said he used it to refer to Evra because he had black hair rather than because of his race.

Was what he said racist? I can see why it looks like it is but if you take him at his word then probably not no.
He wasn't taken at his word, or the FA decided he should have learnt the nuances of our culture to realise the problem using the word might have caused albeit acceptable at home. He might say that we should embrace, or at least try to understand, his culture as well as the other way round.

Evra, however, was taken at his word and Suarez is now a 'racist'

To get into whether what he said was racist or not would be a huge discussion, but my point was simply to say i can understand why he wouldn't be comfortable shaking hands with Evra. I might be the only one as he's getting hammered from everywhere else, but i sympathise with him a little

You also have to take on board what happened at the FA inquiry. It wasnt a simple case of two players saying their piece and a decision being made. Suarez changed his story three times, twice after seeing evidence including video evidence. Evras evidence was taken at his word as it exactly matched all the other submitted evidence that was brought forward at the tribunal. Thats why he was taken at his word, because his word matched teh other evidence and Suarez word didnt.
Again, niether the FA or Evra has called Suarez a racist. Again Suarez at the time could have defused the situation, everything he and Liverpool have done has added fuel to the fire.
At the end of the day Im neither a Man Utd fan or a Liverpool fan and if it makes for some fiesty games then thats great as far as im concerned. But I think Suarez is a scuzball and Kenny Daglish is a one eyed moaning tool (but then again what manager isn't....I know..........the deity that is Martin O'Neill!!!!)

Does anyone else think there is too much analysis and insight into what footballers say, do , ate for breakfast, etc etc?
I'm not sure they collectively deserve so much attention. Football is a fine game, ruined by the modern day footballer (at least at the Premier League level)

I'm not saying he's not guilty Digs, just that he clearly feels that he has done nothing wrong and therefore i can understand him not apologising earlier and not shaking hands.

No one seems to know what tv evidence was produced at the hearing that contradicted Suarez's account. But what's certain is there are no pictures or footage of him saying anything. Despite Evra saying it happened at numerous points during the game and i find that odd. Coupled with the fact that Evra has a history of accusing people like this, my view would be there is enough doubt there to come to any conclusion but guilty and an 8 game ban.

The FA didn't say he was a racist but everyone else is (look at the title of this thread) and that seems harsh.

Never mind!
As you say, if it makes the games more exciting then happy days

Super you are right, there is too much analysis. However, footballers are idolised (rightly or wrongly) and seem to influence the behaviour of a large part of society.

It is pretty clear to me so far that Liverpool FC condone racism. They have tried to correct that view with the set of apologies on Sunday, but unfortunately this is a case of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

The club could have come out of this very well. They chose not to appeal the Suarez ban, and could have issued a statement about how seriously the view racism and how they were going to work with the FA to make things better, educate people, etc.

Instead, with the t-shirt incident and the manager's comments, they come across as a club who do not believe racism matters. The fact that the club has recently had to deal with sveral incidents of racist abusive chants at games indicates that "fans" see it this way.

What parts of this make it clear to you that Liverpool FC condone racism Ray?

MustPuttBetter wrote:What parts of this make it clear to you that Liverpool FC condone racism Ray?

Poor choice of words from me. Perhaps would have been better to say that LFC's approach (prior to Sunday's apologies) could be construed as condoning racism.

1. A player makes racist comments (allegedly). Response: defend him
2. Incident raised to FA. Response: continue to defend him, despite evidence indicating he would be found guilty
3. Player found guilty and banned. Response: continue to defend him, continue to deny allegations and attempt to turn player into some sort of martyr by wearing t-shirts.
4. Player disgraces himself and embarrasses the club in front of largest crowd of the season, in one of the most popular league fixtures in the world. Response: manager fails to acknowldege this, tries to avoid the issue and becomes irritated when pressed.

To me, it's not so much Suarez's silly actions that have caused this view, but rather the way the club has kept quiet and allowed the manager's comments and continued support of him to be interpreted as the views of the club. As manager, Dalglish is the voice of the club, unless the board / senior management choose to make statements.

Because this has escalated, the club has now had to hang Suarez out to dry. Earlier in the process, they could easily have condemned racism whilt remaining supportive of their player.

Deary me...the things the media will do/focus on to
a) sell papers &
b) skye subscriptions

I'm amazed Dalglish took the wind up bait from the interviewer hook line & sinker. Must admit I had a wry chuckle at Fergie's "outrage".

Now aside from the contrived self marketing media circus....what are the actual FACTS of this whole non event farce? Has it actually been proven conclusively that Suarez abused Evra previously? If so what exactly was said? Also was it such a unique event in football. Who exactly did it actually offand so much more than any other similar event, I mean...was Suarez mic'd up at the time of alleged abuse so that the easily offended heard every word he said?

It's all a big pile of hogwash designed to get the gullible and the unthinking glued to the Skye channels for the next titbit. Baaaah!!!

...and another thing.....If someone had racially abused you so terribly....would you actually WANT to shake his hand...probably not...So would you let the missed shake go with a bit of internal relief....Oh no...you'd make a big issue out of it because it's all about scoring petty points!!....Pathetic!!.... Then at the end of the game show what class you really have by trying to whip the crowd up into a frenzy...double pathetic!!

Kenny Dalglish was a guest of Roberto Mancini at the Etihad stadium recently. In the hospitality lounge after the game Mancini asked Kenny “How do you think the current City team would fare against the Liverpool team of the 80’s. Dalglish replied “I think it would be a close run thing, maybe a draw”. Mancini walked away feeling pleased with himself when Dalglish shouted back across the room “Mind you, we haven’t trained in 30 years!!”

The whole thing has escalated into a media frenzy, which has now brought out some of the more unsavoury bits of football.

Man City players taking ratial abuse in Europe.

Brighton fans booing Suarez at the weekend, and thats after their own manager came out in defence of his fellow countryman. What an absolute joke.

4 profesional footballers who are all millionaires acting like spoilt kids. Terry is thick not racist, Ferdinand is stupid, but has been backed by his older brother. Suarez and Evra are both vistors to the country and Evra's reaction at the end of the Liverpool game was so far over the top he deserved an 8-match ban himself. Suaraz and his Uraguayan culture should have been looked at in more depth, because he wasn't being racists at all.

I cant really agree that Anton Ferdinand has done anything wrong here. Why is he acting like a spoilt brat, is he supposed to have just let the whole thing go ? And Im saying that as a Sunderland fan who he played crap for many times.

Doc wrote:

The whole thing has escalated into a media frenzy, which has now brought out some of the more unsavoury bits of football.

4 profesional footballers who are all millionaires acting like spoilt kids. Terry is thick not racist, Ferdinand is stupid, but has been backed by his older brother.

Yes it has escalated into a media frenzy.
Yes Terry is thick.
Is Terry a racist? We don't know, but he has probably made racist comments thousands of times in his life.
Ferdinand is stupid and acting like a spoilt kid? Why? What has he done wrong here? I think he has been pretty dignified so far, compare his actions over the last few months with Evra's.