The 96

Go down

The 96

Post by Doc on Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:01 pm

So after 23-years the truth arrives. What should happen next? The cover up was perpetuated by Maggie, as she was clearly told in a memo that the police had screwed up and the cheif constable must resign, plus a lot more on the subject. Maggie did nothing which in turn firmly laid the blame at the feet of the fans. The Sun has also been villified now, and proves the point the scousers were making as that newspaper has never sold on Merseyside even today. kelvin McKenzie who enjoys spouting his drivel, has finally given an apology, but wow what a cheek, and it just goes to show that even blatant lies published in red top rags, are seen as the truth by many.

Almost 50% of the victims could have been saved if the emergency services had done their jobs properly. Thats a damming indictment, and beggers belief. The coroner himself declared that everyone was dead by 3;15, when it was clearly untrue. The briefing that the police did was unforgiveable, the doctoring of all those statements amazing, but clearly the truth was there for anyone to see who had access to all the evidence, but the lie was just perpetuated by governments of all colour, why.

Many of the 'public servants' involved will have now retired, and living well on those fantastic pensions and conditions, that being a public servant (Then) provided for them. Sir Norman bettison is now the cheif constable of west Yorkshire, and he was there at the time. he will have been well aware of the truth and indeed he has been active in putting a PR spin on the events and lobbying friendly MP's. I'm just amazed that he has been allowed to rise through the ranks, its as if he has been rewarded for being a lying, deceitful, fraudulant crook.

I'm sick to death of the whole thing, and 23 years seems longer. i wish it would go away now, but it seems that families want to keep it going. I feel for them, they were proved correct, theres been a massive conspiracy at the highest level, they've been vindicated and everyone has apologised to them. Seems that its not enough though.
avatar
Doc

Posts : 1083
Join date : 2011-12-12
Location : Crewe, Cheshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by BlueCoverman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:20 pm

Quite right too Doc.

So what should happen next? Surely the first thing is for Maggie, the police, the chief constable, the Sun, Kelvin McKenzie, the emergency services, the coroner, the governments, the public servants and Sir Norman Bettison to all be held responsible and prosecuted for the deaths of those Italian fans at Heysel...
avatar
BlueCoverman

Posts : 2943
Join date : 2011-12-16
Location : Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Davie on Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:38 pm

A very difficult topic ... I'm so very glad the truth has now apparently come out

I always had a dread that the supporters of the 96 needed to be careful as in "be careful what you wish for"... there was always a fear in my mind that any further enquiries would uncover some more bad things about them; thankfully that hasn't happened.

What I still find a little disturbing is the current backlash now that the truth has finally come out. Perhaps quite naturally, the families and supporters seem to want to lash out at everyone and everything, and to my mind this needs to be more focused rather than lashing out at everyone

The vilification of The Sun and Kelvin MacKenzie for example. I'm not a supporter of the Sun and never have been; I think they are trash - but as I understand it the majority of the basis for *that* story they published 23 years ago came from the police and the government of the time. MacKenzie has said it was published in "good faith". Now I think that expression is laughable when applied to the Sun but I kinda know what he is trying to say. The Sun always has been known for presenting news in its most sensational form, but if they were also misled then are they really to blame?

MacKenzie has apologized and The Sun has apologized unreservedly. They should be left out of any future investigations and vilification. If a "witch-hunt" is to be conducted, it should be aimed at the perpetrators - not people who (mis)reported it - unless it can be proven that the Sun were complicit in the coverup
avatar
Davie
Admin

Posts : 2170
Join date : 2011-12-09
Age : 58
Location : Thames Valley

View user profile http://golf-chat.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Doc on Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:30 pm

Davie last week the beeb showed a programme where the Sun reporter was interviewed. He said he put down a balanced view of what happened, using witness statements, and police and MP's etc. He watched Mckenzie create the banner headline "The Truth" and told him he couldn't say that because it was someones version of the truth and not fact. McKenzie knew what he was doing, and published the truth about scouse fans taking cash from the dead etc. Other papers picked some of it up too, and straight away it became "Truth" to almost everyone. The BBC even opened the main news with what the scouse fans were supposed to have done. So I believe the Sun should be villified because they created a myth which became the main reason for events. This enquiery thats going on into press standards, just shows how much power the press has and I hope they really get their wings clipped. This Sun story was much worse than the NOW Milly Dowler episode, that forced the paper to close, and yet another Murdoch title that shows the red tops up for what they are.

Freedom of the press is a basic right in this country, but when they abuse it they should be lambasted. In the states theres a little film doing the rounds that in the eyes of muslims ridicules god. This has caused unrest in the middle east and the deaths of Americans. having those basic rights doesn't mean that they can be abused anytime it takes their fancy.

Due to this episode happening 23-years ago, there will be many of those responsible who have died or are too old to be prosecuted. Thatcher is safe of course, but it begs the question about open government, when a thing like this can be covered up, and those in power going along with slur about the character of those that died. The families have had to endure this for all those years, and even up to yesterday there were plenty of people who believed that they did what the Sun said they did. Those who were responsible for this cover up should have their pensions cancelled if they can't be prosecuted. This country has had to endure years and years of media attention about a young black kid who was stabbed in London. it's still going on, and the Met had to accept 'systemic failures' throughout the police force. This is surely much worse than that and goes much deeper.
avatar
Doc

Posts : 1083
Join date : 2011-12-12
Location : Crewe, Cheshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Mary_S on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:58 am

I admire the families for not giving up on this, they have fought tirelessly to get the truth out in the open. I can't imagine how the families of the 41 dead who could have been saved will be feeling, the whole thing is even worse than they imagined.

The FA should never have staged a semi-final at a ground which did not have a safety certificate, and where there had been instances of Spurs fans getting crushed in Leppings Lane in 1981.

I was shocked by the number of police statements which had been altered, and, also to learn that the ambulance service had done the same in order to deflect any blame from themselves.

It is ironic that some of the junior policemen got hefty compensation for stress caused by the inefficiency of their senior officers on that day, yet the families have had to fight for 23 years for these inefficences to be acknowledged.

Wasn't long ago that Cameron referred to the group as "a blind man, in a dark room,, looking for a black cat that isn't there" How wrong he, and a great many others, were proved yesterday.
avatar
Mary_S

Posts : 1274
Join date : 2011-12-13
Location : Wiltshire, UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Davie on Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:19 am

BlueCoverman wrote:Surely the first thing is for Maggie, the police, the chief constable, the Sun, Kelvin McKenzie, the emergency services, the coroner, the governments, the public servants and Sir Norman Bettison to all be held responsible and prosecuted for the deaths of those Italian fans at Heysel...

I skimmed this message first time I read it but after looking again I don't see the link to Heysel
avatar
Davie
Admin

Posts : 2170
Join date : 2011-12-09
Age : 58
Location : Thames Valley

View user profile http://golf-chat.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by BlueCoverman on Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:49 am

Both involved Liverpool fans Davie

Just playing devil's advocate really, but if every single Liverpool fan, on that truly dreadful day at Hillsborough, was as impeccably behaved as is now being suggested then I would be amazed
avatar
BlueCoverman

Posts : 2943
Join date : 2011-12-16
Location : Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Mary_S on Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:36 am

Blue - I think the conclusion was that there was no higher number of ticketless or drunken fans at Hillsborough than would normally be found at a match of that importance. It would be expected that the police would have procedures in place to control the flow, i.e. barriers on the approach to Leppings Lane to filter (and slow) the crowds en route - as had happened the previous year.

So, certainly not all impeccably behaved, but no worse than experienced at other high profile matches.
avatar
Mary_S

Posts : 1274
Join date : 2011-12-13
Location : Wiltshire, UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Doc on Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:49 pm

I wondered why the FA had gotten embroiled in this yesterday, when they too made an apology. I then discover that the previous seasons FA Cup semi-final, almost had the same thing happen. some people were being crushed and the HSE refused to give the ground a safety certificate. The FA ignored this and just went ahead anyway. Unbelievable really, because today they would have had to play the match elsewhere, or unless the ground got sorted.

Sheff Wednesday FC and the FA would today be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter. So government perception was that football fans are all hooligans, and treated like animals. Police, the FA, Ambulance Service, MP's, local council's can flaunt rules, legislation etc, because of their disdain for fans. Then when they recognise their failings, go on and try and cover it up by placing the blame on the victims. It was only 23-years ago, but my oh my have things changed on the local landscape.
avatar
Doc

Posts : 1083
Join date : 2011-12-12
Location : Crewe, Cheshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Mary_S on Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:57 pm

Doc - info here re. the Spurs semi-final in 1981. This happened before the terracing was divided into pens, and, although fans were able to spread across the terracing, there was still crushing taking place. I think that the FA stopped using the venue for 4 or 5 years after this, but heaven knows why they then decided that it was suitable to bring it back on to the rota.

I'm sure that many of us who attended football matches in that era look back and wonder how on earth we thought it was safe to be caged in on packed terraces.
avatar
Mary_S

Posts : 1274
Join date : 2011-12-13
Location : Wiltshire, UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by BlueCoverman on Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:28 pm

Looking at that footage heaven knows why indeed Mary. It really was a disaster just waiting to happen.

It was usually safe being a Col U fan. Packed terraces were fairly rare for us!
avatar
BlueCoverman

Posts : 2943
Join date : 2011-12-16
Location : Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:11 pm

Blue, I believe when you want to moan to the guy next to you about a decision you have to yell OI! to get his attention from that far away

I was probably too young to realise what a big deal this was at the time. I do remember the shock of what was happening on Grandstand as it happened. It's probably because there wasn't a lot of live football or huge numbers of TV cameras that the cover up was able to be carried out. Nowadays almost everyone would have a camera phone and there would be hundreds of different videos and pictures being taken of something like this that a cover up couldn't take place.

1GrumpyGolfer

Posts : 3782
Join date : 2011-12-12
Location : Pennsylvania

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Doc on Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:22 am

Good point GG, I remember sat watching grandstand the Saturday of the Bradford fire, and seeing people with their hair on fire is still vivid today.

I think that in those days people like Thatcher thought of football fans as fat, stupid, beer swilling louts who should be caged up like animals. Much better for her to think that he police leaders are held in respect, over and above the feelings of 96 families who had their rleatives tarred and slurred. Oh and it doesn't matter that the cock up killed almost 50% of them needlesly as they would have survived had people done their jobs.
avatar
Doc

Posts : 1083
Join date : 2011-12-12
Location : Crewe, Cheshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by BlueCoverman on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:48 am

Doc wrote:I think that in those days people like Thatcher thought of football fans as fat, stupid, beer swilling louts

To be fair in those days a lot of them were
avatar
BlueCoverman

Posts : 2943
Join date : 2011-12-16
Location : Essex

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:28 am

BlueCoverman wrote:
Doc wrote:I think that in those days people like Thatcher thought of football fans as fat, stupid, beer swilling louts

To be fair in those days a lot of them were

My dad used to hate taking me to football in those days for all of the above reasons. I think the change to all seater stadiums has made them a more family friendly environment but has lessened some of the atmosphere that you used to get.


1GrumpyGolfer

Posts : 3782
Join date : 2011-12-12
Location : Pennsylvania

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by oldshanker on Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:57 am

BlueCoverman wrote:
Doc wrote:I think that in those days people like Thatcher thought of football fans as fat, stupid, beer swilling louts

To be fair in those days a lot of them were

Actually, if I remember correctly, about that time it was evidenced that the majority of the football trouble makers were well dressed, fully employed, well paid 'professional' accountants etc. not just accountants obviously, that would just be stupid!

I also think that Mrs Thatcher is probably guilty of only one thing, believing what her police force told her and not wanting to open up a can of worms. With everybody and their next door neighbour clamouring to distance themselves from the tragedy, whilst also apologising profusely, whether they were involved or not, I believe the blame can be laid fair and square on the shoulders of the police. without prejudice
avatar
oldshanker

Posts : 390
Join date : 2011-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by LondonJonnyO on Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 am

And people wonder why we are getting more americanised every day.

More compensation being paid out meaning less coppers to do the job in a year or so no doubt.
avatar
LondonJonnyO

Posts : 862
Join date : 2011-12-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Mary_S on Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:51 pm

The lower ranking police officers received an average of £93k in compensation for PTSD. Some of the families received as little as £1K, to cover funeral costs.

I'm not in favour of the compensation culture, and money cannot bring a loved one back, but seeing the years of stress etched on the faces of those women who have led the fight for the truth - I wouldn't begrudge the families some form of financial recognition for the personal sacrifices they have made in order to get justice.
avatar
Mary_S

Posts : 1274
Join date : 2011-12-13
Location : Wiltshire, UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by LondonJonnyO on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:54 pm

I would. Based upon the fact that they didn't have to do this... they chose to do it. If everyone who questioned the authorities went ahead and chased this hard then expected to be compensated as a result of their own nature we would be bankrupt as a nation.

If you want to question then fine... but it should have no financial recompense at the end.
avatar
LondonJonnyO

Posts : 862
Join date : 2011-12-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The 96

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum