Thought Police

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Thought Police

Post by diggers on Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:41 pm

Just wondered what people thought on this story -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16176410
I find something pretty scary about the whole thing, talking about re-educating the punks for their own good. This part of Indonesia received a lot of western aid after the tsunami, Id imagine still on going? Would it be right for the west to apply pressure to stop this kind of breach of civil liberties or should countries/cultures be left to their own devices to act as they see fit ?

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Re: Thought Police

Post by Doc on Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:54 pm

My own view is that we should stay well away from getting involved in other countries politics, culture and way of life, especially muslims. The west mainly USA and UK are seen as the enemy and we only inflame local situations when we 'try and do the right thing'. There is no right thing as far as i'm concerned, and yes we may disagree with their culture and way of life, but have no devout right to try and lecture or influence other nations. It doesn't work and causes serious problems, especially for ex pats who reside in these places. I also think its about time we stopped giving aid to certain countries, who have bad civil rights practices etc. The tsunami was really bad and they needed and deserved our help, but not anymore.

I'm afraid we have serious issues of our own back in the west, which I feel are more deserving than bankrolling corrupt despots in the emerging world. Why give aid to African countries who execute gays or because they are from a different tribe. The continent of Africa should deal with Africa and the muslim people should look after their own, irrespective of if we disagree with their politics. The standard answer we get from our politicians is that if we don't get involved, the problems will reach us further down the line. I think the problems actually reach us far quicker by sticking our noses in.
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Re: Thought Police

Post by LondonJonnyO on Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:58 pm

MiniLove looks like it is up and running doubleplusgood over there.
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Re: Thought Police

Post by diggers on Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:16 pm

You are probably right in many respects Doc. I certainly am no fan of military intervention and have no real belief that they are are ever really done for the good of the people involved, ie Iraq, far more for regional strength and potential financial gain.

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Re: Thought Police

Post by Doc on Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:31 pm

diggers wrote:You are probably right in many respects Doc. I certainly am no fan of military intervention and have no real belief that they are are ever really done for the good of the people involved, ie Iraq, far more for regional strength and potential financial gain.

Listened to an American pundit last night, commenting about Obama's 'war is over' speech, and mentioned that Iraq was costing $180b per year now, but much, much more at the start 10-years ago. The Afgan war combined with Iraq has run into trillions and also a heavy cost in US life, never mind the uncounted local's. The US economy would be still in the black instead of being in the doldrums, and the amount of UK borrowing that was needed to play war games in both theatres has also hurt us badly. Its unsustainable in the present economic climate, but there are certain US States who have a thriving defence industry who have benefited by these wars, so political expediency overrules the head.

We have no idea what the outcome will be for the 'desert spring' as Syria, Egypt etc are still in turmoil, and Lybia has a fledgling government with people who have never experienced power before. The wole place is a tinderbox and trying to dictate decomatric policy in these places is bound to fail. We stayed out of Syria and are leaving them to it, and hoping the Arab League can restore calm, but we slightly got involved in Lybia providing air power, which could be ok, but we did along with the French because of oil and contracts, not through the goodness of our hearts.
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Re: Thought Police

Post by diggers on Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:37 pm

Im not a fan of imposing democracy by force, who are we as the west to say that a democracy would serve a nation better than a theocracy ? It all smacks to much of the Crusades and enforced christinaity.
Its not like true deomocracy in the west has been with us for that long, was it as recently 1971 that women in Switzerland got the vote ?
So really the sorts of sanctions I woudl be looking at here would be more financial though of course there is then the possibility that lots of people will suffer as a consequence.
Very tricky really.

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Re: Thought Police

Post by gaelgowfer on Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:29 am

Doc, are you effectively saying that monetary aid should not have been given to tsunami-affected countries then?

I donated to that particular natural disaster, as did many british citizens, but am appalled to think that in all probabilty was (ab)used to publicly beat women for breaking some paltry sharia law.

I'm so disgusted with religious practices in general that I no longer follow one as it seems to me they all pretty much impose misogynistic values to a greater or lesser extent.

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Re: Thought Police

Post by Doc on Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:35 am

gael, most certainaly not:

''The tsunami was really bad and they needed and deserved our help, but not anymore". Quoted from above. I too lumped into that aid package as well, so deffinatley not saying that
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Re: Thought Police

Post by gaelgowfer on Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:50 am

Doc wrote:gael, most certainaly not:

''The tsunami was really bad and they needed and deserved our help, but not anymore". Quoted from above. I too lumped into that aid package as well, so deffinatley not saying that

Hmmm. It might have helped if you'd included the previous sentence but then that would have highlighted your muddled thinking and distinct lack of any logical, far less practical, approach to such a conundrum viz.

"I also think its about time we stopped giving aid to certain countries, who have bad civil rights practices etc. The tsunami was really bad and they needed and deserved our help, but not anymore."

Had you followed post tsunami events then you should have realised that the sharia problems subsequently arose as a direct result of aid money being made available to local authorities, some of whom believed the tsunami was a punishment for sharia law practices not being strictly adhered to.


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Re: Thought Police

Post by smithersjones on Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:21 am

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. ~ Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics

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Re: Thought Police

Post by diggers on Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:25 am

smithersjones wrote:Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. ~ Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics

I think plenty of people who were otherwise/previously good have done bad things in the name of communism and fascism. I dont think you can single out religion like that, political ideology or just the following of a "great" leader can have the same effects.
Im sure plenty of Brits have done some heinous crime in the name of King and Country over the years.

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Re: Thought Police

Post by smithersjones on Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:34 am

diggers wrote:
smithersjones wrote:Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. ~ Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics

I think plenty of people who were otherwise/previously good have done bad things in the name of communism and fascism. I dont think you can single out religion like that, political ideology or just the following of a "great" leader can have the same effects.
Im sure plenty of Brits have done some heinous crime in the name of King and Country over the years.

I'd liken following those types of regime to religious extremism, wouldn't you? As for the history of the British Empire, let's not go there.

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Re: Thought Police

Post by diggers on Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:37 am

Totally, but all Im saying is its within human nature to go bananas for a whole host of reasons. Reigion for sure is right up there but equally there are hundreds of millions of people who follow a religion who are not zealots or indoctrinated...they just believe in god.

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