Tax Avoidance

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Tax Avoidance

Post by Doc on Wed May 09, 2012 12:28 am

So Ken Livingstone got beaten because Londoners were upset about his "non payment" of taxes. This whole episode kicked off when it came out that the man at the top of the QUANGO for student loans, only paid 10% tax, because he set himself up as a Ltd company. The goverment went ballistic about it, and then it came out last week that a few thousand government employees in whitehall, were all doing the same. This is an absolute shambles, and will never change as long as we have so many different taxes applicable. Why should Joe Public, who works his backside off pay a huge proportion of his wages in PAYE, when a vast majority of more wealthy employees can avoid it by using grey loopholes.

If PAYE, VAT et al were all scapped completley, nobody would be able to avoid paying tax, and the correct ammount. Everything we buy would have to be more expensive as the 'tax' could be claimed daily at source, from the companies we purchased the goods from. food etc would be a low tax band, white goods/electricals up to a certain value another tax band, furniture tax c, cars etc would be a much higher tax etc. This would ensure that everyone recieved all their wages (Minus NI) and could then spend it on anything they wanted, but everything would be more expensive pro-rata. This ensures that the rich blike who wants to buy a new bently pays the full premium tax on his luxury item etc.

It wpould also mean that 90% of HMRC could go and get a proper job, as there would be no need for them. benefits could benpaid for in food vouchers, electricity vouchers etc, so benefits went on essentials for the family, and not on booze, big tellys, cars and cigs.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by Mercurio on Wed May 09, 2012 12:52 am

You think the government would collect more tax by getting rid of the PAYE system, do you?

Interesting.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 1:00 am

Not sure it would do a lot for the tourist trade Doc, presumably restaurants, hotels, car hire etc would also suddenly become more expensive as well.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 1:19 am

Why are people annoyed that he used a legal loophole to his advantage.

thousands of sole traders/contractors/etc do it everyday.

I say good luck to them.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by Doc on Wed May 09, 2012 1:21 am

Merc

Yes because these days almost all transactions are done electronicly, so HMRC could collect daily. Nobody would be not paying tax unless you make a living as a burglar etc and never spend any money. Each type of store would fall under one tax type as mentioned before. Yes on the one hand everything becomes more expensive, but nobody is paying PAYE so in real-terms the basics the actual, cost of living hasn't changed. That is unless you are very wealthy and only purchase luxury goods, where the price will be maybe 60% above cost. This ensures everyone pays tax.

Diggers, yes the tourist trade would be hit to an extent, but then there are enough places dotted around the globe, who use this type of tax. bermuda and the like, or wherever there's a tax haven. As mentioned on another thread about the Olympics, the tourist trade are milking it now. theres also no reason why someone carrying a passport shouldn't be charged the actual,cost price, but I prefer the option of taxing everyone who visits these shores. More revenue for the exchequuer should mean lower costs for us, or more government spending on us.

Anyway its a discussion point, because the existing system is flawed and needs changing
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 1:24 am

I dont have any particular issue with the using the loopholes when they exist, I just think the govt should act quickly to stop those sort of loopholes existing.
But really its the same argument for people on benefits. Why do people get so annoyed when people work the system to their advantage, its no different to the high earner who wants to pay as little tax as possible.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 1:37 am

The whole concept of tax irritates me anyway.

I cost less than the average asspicking scumbag on a council estate... basically zero footprint in terms of what I take out of the system and yet I fund god knows how many of those worthless pieces of crap and their numerous waste of air offspring.

No taxation. No benefits. No free anything.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 1:43 am

You may well pay more tax than people who earn way more than you and yet you praise them for playing the system. People at the other end do the same and would have them put down. Rank hypocrisy really.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 1:45 am

No. I praise those who use the loopholes to their advantage. When I was in the position to do so I made every use of the various ways to squeeze through the system.

That doesn't mean I believe in paying tax in any way whatsoever. It annoys me having to pay for the bottom feeders in society.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 1:49 am

You drive a car dont you, what do you think keeps the roads in one piece, pixie dust ? I could list a whole host of items that you get a return on the tax you pay from, it doesnt all go off in an envelope to some bloke on a council estate you know.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 1:52 am

It should be the road tax I pay for the privilege of owning a car. But that hardly covers it these days. It now seems to come out of council tax for the local roads and some mysterious funding for private companies for the motorways (funded out of the treasury in some manner). With the road tax no doubt going towards paying for cars for the bottomfeeders who don't pay council tax as they can't afford it whilst driving around in their Audis and Mercs.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 2:01 am

Then there are funds that go to the forces, the fire brigade, monies to repair the pavements you walk on and on and on and on and on.....
As it goes I dont think genuine freeloaders should be allowed to get away with it...just as tax loopholes should be closed up. It should make sense for people on benefits to be reqarded financially for giving up those benfits and taking a job and paying into society. But as it stands at the moment that isnt always the case.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 2:06 am

diggers wrote:Then there are funds that go to the forces, the fire brigade, monies to repair the pavements you walk on and on and on and on and on.....
As it goes I dont think genuine freeloaders should be allowed to get away with it...just as tax loopholes should be closed up. It should make sense for people on benefits to be reqarded financially for giving up those benfits and taking a job and paying into society. But as it stands at the moment that isnt always the case.

True enough.

And to be fair I think that some taxation is inevitable. Policing, Security, Military, Fire Service etc. But then I look at the NHS and think what a joke. I also think that tax is something which can be attributed to each person at a fixed cost. This sliding scale annoys me. I cost a hell of a lot less to the state than most (and so do most on here I imagine) so why should we pay more than something who is getting all this tax credit, family allowance and whatever other nonsense is handed out to make people have a higher standard of living than they are really capable of providing for themselves.

In the words of Judge Smails. "The world needs ditchdiggers too." To add to that... Just don't expect me to prop up a ditchdiggers lifestyle so that he can drive a landrover as well as every irritating extra in those idiotic reality shows.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 2:14 am

I dont think many ditchdiggers drive land rovers, and at least if they are digging ditches they are paying into the system.
There are other ways at looking at society anyway. Personally I believe that a nurse should be paid more than a banker, they contribute far more to society,but that isnt the case. Not everyone in a low income job is a ditchdigger, some people are not all about the money. Social workers. teaching assistants, charity workers, there are lots of people who give to society and deserve a helping hand from the state IMO.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 2:20 am

diggers wrote:I dont think many ditchdiggers drive land rovers, and at least if they are digging ditches they are paying into the system.
There are other ways at looking at society anyway. Personally I believe that a nurse should be paid more than a banker, they contribute far more to society,but that isnt the case. Not everyone in a low income job is a ditchdigger, some people are not all about the money. Social workers. teaching assistants, charity workers, there are lots of people who give to society and deserve a helping hand from the state IMO.

Nope. You choose your vocation. And nurses are more than capable of high earnings. All they need to do is figure out that working contract or actually developing their skills into a speciailism gives them financial rewards. But for giving someone a bedbath? Nope. Menial labour. Menial wages. I also disagree with the minimum wage. Thats a joke as well.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 2:27 am

My sister is an NHS nurse and I would imagine is probably better qualified than you. She certainly doesnt earn a fortune, far from it, and if you think she just gives bedbaths all that actually shows is you are badly informed.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 2:36 am

diggers wrote:My sister is an NHS nurse and I would imagine is probably better qualified than you. She certainly doesnt earn a fortune, far from it, and if you think she just gives bedbaths all that actually shows is you are badly informed.

More qualified? Probably in her area of specialism. And of course she doesn't just give bedbaths. However it highlights my point. Perhaps if she was more focused in a specific area she may well earn more.

That said nurses are on around 14k-32k based upon experience and a specific specialism according to a search I just did. Which is above the national average so what they hell is there to compain about.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 2:38 am

also makes a joke of them constantly whinging about salary when they are above the national average doesn't it.

Bloody unions.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 2:40 am

She couldnt be more specifically qualified, she has been a neonatal nurse for 20 years. Most nurses specialise.
What is there to complain about, how about the fact that some utter knob jockey who spent his life with a cock up his arse at public school gets to walk into a job and earn a few million because his Dad sucked off someone else at public school.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 2:44 am

diggers wrote:She couldnt be more specifically qualified, she has been a neonatal nurse for 20 years. Most nurses specialise.
What is there to complain about, how about the fact that some utter knob jockey who spent his life with a cock up his arse at public school gets to walk into a job and earn a few million because his Dad sucked off someone else at public school.

So what you're really saying is that you think you deserve a handout because someone else got handed a fortune by their old man then. Isn't that a bit pathetic? If you want it go earn it. And if you can hand something to your kids will you be doing so? Or giving it all to the local council to help them build another rehabiliation centre?
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 2:55 am

No what Im saying is sausage munchers like that do a job that pays them well but does nothing for society. In fact it detracts from society, so if the price they pay high tax then good.
If society chooses to reward people in a lower salary bracket who actually contribute then Im all for that and im happy that they get subsidised housing and further benefits.
You seem to judge everything that happens in life as a financial model, society doesnt work that way, its far more complex.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 2:57 am

diggers wrote:No what Im saying is sausage munchers like that do a job that pays them well but does nothing for society. In fact it detracts from society, so if the price they pay high tax then good.
If society chooses to reward people in a lower salary bracket who actually contribute then Im all for that and im happy that they get subsidised housing and further benefits.
You seem to judge everything that happens in life as a financial model, society doesnt work that way, its far more complex.

But then I don't believe in society. I believe in the individual.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 2:59 am

No man is an island LJ, not even you.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 3:06 am

Naturally not. But then what you are saying is that someones worth is decided by their value to everyone else.

I say that if someone chooses to spend their life in a certain vocation then determining their value as a result of that is pointless. They choose what they do. To expect anyone else to thank them as a result of that choice and even subsidise their life as a result of it is ridiculous.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 3:12 am

Its may be ridiculous to you because you view things in a certain way, I think you'll find that it makes perfect sense to a lot of people who value the roles of certain members of society and believe that other members of society are overpaid.
Personally I would just pay certain professions more, it would make life a lot easier.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Wed May 09, 2012 4:19 am

Isn't that saying that you want everyone to be given the same amount for doing the same job and that their value is measured only by what they give to the whole rather than by making a profit for themselves?

Basically moving rapidly towards communism. That doesn't work you realise. The corrupt get richer whilst those convincing themselves that they live in some equality enforced utopia just get screwed.

You might think that a nurse is worth more than an investment banker... but one changes beds and cleans wounds for a living. The other generates massive profits which are taxed and pays for the nurse in the first place.

I say that banker is of more value to society as without them no nurse would get paid in the first place. After all NI isn't gonna pay their overly inflated salaries.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 5:14 am

Generates profits , really ? You could get rid of any human involvement and a computer program could manage the markets better. The majority are just pointless pen pushes are arse lickers.
Anyway a question for you. Two lower income people, employed but not well paid, have a handicapped child. Do you think the state should give no support to that child through its life ?

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by super_realist on Wed May 09, 2012 6:51 am

Does anyone know what percentage of our taxes go to subsidising the lead swinging long term useless?

I imagine its considerable, so I'm all for reducing my tax liability by legal avoidance measures.

I do something good for society Diggers, I'm in oil exploration. Should I pay paid more and pay less tax? Afterall, without people like me life would be considerably more difficult

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 8:18 pm

If you were a low paid govt worker performing a useful task for the good of the State then yes Super. As you are probably a well paid, privately employed worker looking for oil to profit the organisation you work for then no.
Anyway who says looking for oil is good for society you planet killer.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by super_realist on Wed May 09, 2012 8:30 pm

Planet killer, perhaps a new pseudonym for me. I like it.
I do find the general opposition to the oil industry rather hypocritical though, almost every element of our lives relies upon its use.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 8:33 pm

I thought you would like it, kinda suits you. Hey, I have two diesel cars and a Vespa in the garage, I can hardly moan about people finding oil. And most likely all other alternative power sources will need oil at some point in the process.
Somehow though I dont feel you go looking for oil out of a love for your fellow humans though Super.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by super_realist on Wed May 09, 2012 8:50 pm

Of course not Diggers, I'm in it for the money. I just can't stand the ecomentalists complaining about oil companies when it plays such a vital and irreplaceable part in all our lives. As far as I know you can't power a car bus or train with a wind turbine on the roof.

I take it that the greenpeace protest boats are powered by an army of hamsters going round and round in wheels?
Also how do the tofu and lentil burgers they eat get to the UK?, not to mention the planet killing cars they drive like vw beetles and 2cv's.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 9:00 pm

Well they did have a teeny weeny bone to pick with BP when they managed to screw up the Gulf of Mexico. I dont think many people believe that oil companies have great principles, I certainly dont, its all about the buck.
Factor in the fact that we are jealous and mistrustful of all the Arab countries and you have another reason.
Your Greenpeace argument is just a bit silly really, the boats are clearly a means to an end. They disrupt far more oil production than the boats use, also its not that they are always against oil fields full stop, its about where those fields are and the effect it has on the surrounding environment.
But Im sure you know all of this.


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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by super_realist on Wed May 09, 2012 9:06 pm

Yes diggers, I'm well aware. Although I'm not quite sure why greenpeace should decide where is suitable and where isn't. Drilling isn't inherently dangerous. Just as speeding isn't. Inappropriate or poorly controlled drilling is. Millions of wells have been drilled and there have only been a minuscule number of accidents. Safety and environmental concerns are probably greater than in any other industry.

I wonder what a greenpeace world would look like? Amish America?

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 9:11 pm

They have every right to have a say, you might like to portray Greenpeace as tree hugging idiots but that is far from the truth. Clearly oil companies should not be left to their own devices, govts should have far more control but are subject to self interest as well, so the world needs independant protest groups. It shouldnt, but it does.
Miniscule number of accidents with massive consequences, not sure that even you can try and justify the Gulf of Mexico debacle but Im sure you will.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by super_realist on Wed May 09, 2012 9:17 pm

Diggers, its actually the governments who decide where oil companies drill, they define the blocks, sell the block licences and decide who is allowed to drill there based upon competency.

Accidents happen unfortunately, just as they do in travel, but doesn't mean we have a go at airlines as much.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 9:25 pm

Yes....read the line I wrote about govt self interest...backhanders.....whatever you want to call it.
Im sure all the African countries decide who will drill on their land based on competancy. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by super_realist on Wed May 09, 2012 9:32 pm

Can you recall any major oil accidents in Africa?
I'm not defending the companies or any of the accidents or even that there is some corruption, just as there is in all business, I just don't think we can be holier than thou about it. Everything comes with risks but on the whole the oil industry is better than most at managing it.

What I dislike is that people think there is something wrong in chasing wealth, and the oil industry gets a very hard time in that respect compared to others with far worse safety records.


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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 9:38 pm

I think that the problem in Africa is not large disasters but the overall effect on communities and the environment. This is really worse than having a large accident, its just pre planned raping and pillaging of countries natural resources working hand in hand with corrupt govts.
There is nothing wrong with trying to make money, its how you go about doing it.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by super_realist on Wed May 09, 2012 9:44 pm

Fair enough, I get your point. Must say I'd fill my trousers if I was told I had to go to Nigeria or Angola.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Wed May 09, 2012 9:47 pm

Dont think the golf would be too great either.

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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by LondonJonnyO on Thu May 10, 2012 10:45 am

diggers wrote:Generates profits , really ? You could get rid of any human involvement and a computer program could manage the markets better. The majority are just pointless pen pushes are arse lickers.
Anyway a question for you. Two lower income people, employed but not well paid, have a handicapped child. Do you think the state should give no support to that child through its life ?

There have already been cases of the programs you refer to moving the market to the extent that it was headed to its greatest loss in history.

Without an over-ride by a human being we would now all be broke.

And also... bankers don't just trade you realise. That's just one front office function within the investment divisions of a bank.
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Re: Tax Avoidance

Post by diggers on Thu May 10, 2012 10:26 pm

So are you suggesting that computer programs haven't changed the way banks work in the past 20 years ? An increasing amount of the data analysis and strategy is done using computers, processes performed by people in the past are now done by computer. This will continue as more intelligent programs are evolved.
I know a lot of people who work for banks and in the finance sector, most of them work long hours and are fairly tenacious. Intellectual giants they are not. They all usually have the good grace to admit that what they do isnt rocket science but they are pleased and they get well paid for it.
You didnt answer my question I notice.


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